ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[Derf]

Do you not understand that the promise of eternal life is promised to believers (1 Jn.2:25)? Do you not understand the the Lord Jesus promised that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish?

Do you have faith in those promises?

Yes I do. Yes, I agree that those things are promised to believers. Now what if someone doesn't believe anymore, i.e., they are no longer a believer? Is God promising something based on their faith, but their faith is no longer applicable?

Let's look at it this way. If God makes us eternal (gives us eternal life), and then we reject Him, where are we in terms of eternal life? Can God "kill" an eternal being? I would suggest that He does:

[Rev 20:4-5, 10, 14-15 KJV] 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.[so there will be a second resurrection] ... 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ... 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death [meaning there was a first death]. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
​

If we are only required to die once for our sins, then why is it that people that have died are sentenced to death again? And if Satan is spirit, which he and all angels are, from what I understand, are they not eternal beings? Yet here Satan is experiencing what is "second death" for men, but only a first death for him? Thus those that have eternal life can "die" in this "second death".

So what is it that allows for the second resurrection (those that worshiped the beast, etc.)? These people have died already. Why are they allowed to live again, if only for judgment?

I would propose the following:
That Christ died for the whole world, and that the whole world will be resurrected because of His sacrifice (call me universal salvationist for a moment, if it fits, [MENTION=15685]musterion[/MENTION], but read on before making such judgment). But once we are resurrected, there's still the old matter of whether we are willing to obey God's commands, even the little ones, like "Don't eat of that tree over there." If we aren't willing to do what God commands, then we can't be with Him forever, as His will WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven. So wherever you are, earth or heaven, after the resurrection, you will be doing God's will. And if you don't want to, God puts you, along with Satan, in hell, where you can't do anyone else any harm.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes I do. Yes, I agree that those things are promised to believers. Now what if someone doesn't believe anymore, i.e., they are no longer a believer? Is God promising something based on their faith, but their faith is no longer applicable?

You continue to try to shift the argument. The question we are discussing is whether or not those who have already received eternal life can perish. You say that they can but the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He has given eternal shall never perish (Jn.10:28). You say that they can!

The eternal life which is given is a "gift" (Ro.6:23). And once given it will never be taken back:

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

According to your view the LORD will indeed revoke or take back the gift of eternal life which He has already given.

We also know that those to whom He gives eternal life will not come into judgment (Jn.5:24) but you say that they can. I cannot see that you believe anything about what is revealed in the scriptures about those who have been given eternal life.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If we aren't willing to do what God commands, then we can't be with Him forever, as His will WILL be done on earth as it is in heaven. So wherever you are, earth or heaven, after the resurrection, you will be doing God's will. And if you don't want to, God puts you, along with Satan, in hell, where you can't do anyone else any harm.

The Scriptures reveal that once a Christian will be resurrected then after that he will be with the Lord Jesus for ever:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).​

 

[musterion]

Derf,

If you're going to be consistent you're going to have to acknowledge that, at least from your point of view, the Apostle Paul taught both the possibility of those in Christ losing salvation and the unconditional eternal security of those in Christ.

Since God is not the author of confusion, this contradiction cannot actually exist. Therefore, it is up to you to solve this apparent conundrum that your position creates.

 

[Derf]

The Scriptures reveal that once a Christian will be resurrected then after that he will be with the Lord Jesus for ever:

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess.4:17).​

There's more to the question than just that, Jerry. Who is "we" in 1 Thess 4:17? It is believers, right? Who are "believers"? those that believe. What does "believing" mean? Does it mean that we only believe that Jesus is our savior, or does it also mean that we believe that Jesus is our LORD, too? If the latter also, then that must mean that we are willing to obey Him, now and later. The now is imperfect, but the later has to be perfect obedience, if His will is really to be done in earth and in heaven.

And if we aren't willing to obey, then we aren't really "believing", are we? We don't really believe that His word is true. You keep focusing on one particular aspect of your question, but what does "Christian" mean? It means "little Christ". If we aren't willing to be "little Christs", then we aren't really Christians, and thus we aren't really believers.

 

[Nihilo]

There's more to the question than just that, Jerry. Who is "we" in 1 Thess 4:17? It is believers, right? Who are "believers"? those that believe. What does "believing" mean? Does it mean that we only believe that Jesus is our savior, or does it also mean that we believe that Jesus is our LORD, too? If the latter also, then that must mean that we are willing to obey Him, now and later. The now is imperfect, but the later has to be perfect obedience, if His will is really to be done in earth and in heaven.

And if we aren't willing to obey, then we aren't really "believing", are we? We don't really believe that His word is true. You keep focusing on one particular aspect of your question, but what does "Christian" mean? It means "little Christ". If we aren't willing to be "little Christs", then we aren't really Christians, and thus we aren't really believers.

Paul is clear about law-keeping, which is what you're arguing for, inadvertently and still definitely. Paul said forget the law (Galatians 5:11 KJV the offense of the cross is that Paul does not preach law-keeping) and walk in the Spirit, focus on love, focus on heaven, Philippians 4:8 (KJV)---because Philippians 3:20 (KJV)!

 

[Derf]

Paul is clear about law-keeping, which is what you're arguing for, inadvertently and still definitely. Paul said forget the law (Galatians 5:11 KJV the offense of the cross is that Paul does not preach law-keeping) and walk in the Spirit, focus on love, focus on heaven, Philippians 4:8 (KJV)---because Philippians 3:20 (KJV)!

Hi Nihilo,
Thanks for the response! What is interesting about your response is that it says to forget one law (relating to circumcision) and to DO another law. You've given me a new law to follow, stated as follows:
"Forget the Gal 5:11 law"
"walk in the Spirit"
"focus on love"
"focus on heaven"

I don't deny that your law is a good one, and that it approximates some of what Paul told us, more of which can be found in Ephesians 4:

• walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, [Eph 4:1 NKJV]
• [bear] with one another in love, [Eph 4:2 NKJV]
• [endeavor] to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [Eph 4:3 NKJV]
• [some are given to be] apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, [Eph 4:11 NKJV] (meaning He gave them a job to do, which He expects them to do, I would think--the apostles are sent out, the prophets prophecy, the pastors watch their flocks, and the teachers teach)
• [equip] the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, [Eph 4:12 NKJV]
• no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, [Eph 4:17 NKJV]
• [don't give yourselves] over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. [Eph 4:19 NKJV]
• put off the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, [Eph 4:22 NKJV]
• be renewed in the spirit of your mind, [Eph 4:23 NKJV]
• put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness. [Eph 4:24 NKJV]
• [put] away lying, [Eph 4:25 NKJV]
• "Be angry, and do not sin": do not let the sun go down on your wrath, [Eph 4:26 NKJV]
• give [no] place to the devil. [Eph 4:27 NKJV]
• steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with [his] hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. [Eph 4:28 NKJV]
• Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. [Eph 4:29 NKJV]
• do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [Eph 4:30 NKJV]
• Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. [Eph 4:31 NKJV]
• be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, [Eph 4:32 NKJV]

And 1 Corinthians 10:

• Neither be idolaters, [1Co 10:7 KJV]
• Neither commit fornication [1Co 10:8 KJV]
• Neither tempt Christ[1Co 10:9 KJV]
• Neither murmur ye [1Co 10:10 KJV]
• flee from idolatry. [1Co 10:14 KJV]
• Let no man seek his own, but every man another's [wealth]. [1Co 10:24 KJV]
• Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: [1Co 10:32 KJV]

I feel kind of bad using up so much space with excerpts from only two chapters of commands from Paul, but I think it gives us an idea of what Christ expects from His body. In fact, the whole idea of Paul writing letters to the churches was to tell them how to think and act like Christians! Even the idea from Galatians that they weren't to go off and get circumcised was a command from Paul, accompanied by reasoning why the antithesis was not the right thing to do.

And who, being Christ's, would not want to give Him what He asks of us?? If we don't want to give Him what He asks of us, are we really His? If you love someone who is Lord (i.e., in authority) over you, won't you want to keep His commandments?

Thus, the question in the survey, Must one be willing to stop sinning or he won't get saved? seems to me to be a no-brainer. Not that your works save you, nor that you will be able to accomplish it immediately nor without the help of the Holy Spirit, but that it is what you would be willing to do for your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

That's how John DEFINED love of God: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [1Jo 5:3 KJV] That's how Jesus defined love toward Himself, and then He demonstrated His love for the Father by DOING what the Father sent Him to do:
[Jhn 14:23-24, 31 KJV] 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. ... 31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

There's more to the question than just that, Jerry. Who is "we" in 1 Thess 4:17?

Are you actually arguing that once the saints put on glorious bodies like the Lord's that they can actually be separated from Him despite the fact that Paul says that those who will be caught up with Him in the air will be with Him forever?

I just want to make sure that I am understanding you correctly.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes I do. Yes, I agree that those things are promised to believers. Now what if someone doesn't believe anymore, i.e., they are no longer a believer? Is God promising something based on their faith, but their faith is no longer applicable?

You continue to try to shift the argument. The question we are discussing is whether or not those who have already received eternal life can perish. You say that they can but the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He has given eternal shall never perish (Jn.10:28). You say that they can!

The eternal life which is given is a "gift" (Ro.6:23). And once given it will never be taken back:

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

According to your view the LORD will indeed revoke or take back the gift of eternal life which He has already given.

We also know that those to whom He gives eternal life will not come into judgment (Jn.5:24) but you say that they can. I cannot see that you believe anything about what is revealed in the scriptures about those who have been given eternal life.

 

[Derf]

Derf,

If you're going to be consistent you're going to have to acknowledge that, at least from your point of view, the Apostle Paul taught both the possibility of those in Christ losing salvation and the unconditional eternal security of those in Christ.

Since God is not the author of confusion, this contradiction cannot actually exist. Therefore, it is up to you to solve this apparent conundrum that your position creates.

Good comment, Musterion. But I disagree with what you said about Paul. I don't think he taught the possibility of anyone who is in Christ losing their salvation. But he certainly taught that those who are not in Christ won't be saved. And those that stopped being in Christ, like the foolish Galatians, who started to put their trust in circumcision and by doing so were no longer "in Christ". I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [Gal 1:6 KJV] And Paul was worried that they were no longer saved, it seems like: I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. [Gal 4:11 KJV] It wasn't because they were doing those things (getting circumcised and observing special days and months, etc), but because they were putting their faith in those things, at the behest of the false teachers.

So no, I don't see any conundrum created here.

 

[musterion]

Good comment, Musterion. But I disagree with what you said about Paul. I don't think he taught the possibility of anyone who is in Christ losing their salvation. But he certainly taught that those who are not in Christ won't be saved. And those that stopped being in Christ, like the foolish Galatians, who started to put their trust in circumcision and by doing so were no longer "in Christ". I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: [Gal 1:6 KJV] And Paul was worried that they were no longer saved, it seems like: I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. [Gal 4:11 KJV] It wasn't because they were doing those things (getting circumcised and observing special days and months, etc), but because they were putting their faith in those things, at the behest of the false teachers.

So no, I don't see any conundrum created here.

The Galatians were not literally removed from Christ in the sense you think. If they were, Paul would have known and would have taken much different steps in writing to them. Plus, to claim that they were removed from Him once again creates a contradiction with the other places where Paul indicates such is impossible.

 

[Derf]

You continue to try to shift the argument. The question we are discussing is whether or not those who have already received eternal life can perish. You say that they can but the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He has given eternal shall never perish (Jn.10:28). You say that they can!

The eternal life which is given is a "gift" (Ro.6:23). And once given it will never be taken back:

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

According to your view the LORD will indeed revoke or take back the gift of eternal life which He has already given.

We also know that those to whom He gives eternal life will not come into judgment (Jn.5:24) but you say that they can. I cannot see that you believe anything about what is revealed in the scriptures about those who have been given eternal life.

Is it possible that eternal life is more of a continuous gift, rather than a one-time gift?

Or I'm fine with the idea that those who say they believe don't really believe in the cases where they fall away. But it makes no sense to say that someone who once said they believed and now says they don't believe can be considered a believer and thus a beneficiary of God's gift of eternal life.

Maybe you can help me to understand your position better--Can you point to anyone that professes to be an unbeliever that you know has received the gift of eternal life? Anyone? Anyone? Why do you argue so hard for unbelievers to be entitled to eternal life??

 

[Derf]

The Galatians were not literally removed from Christ in the sense you think. If they were, Paul would have known and would have taken much different steps in writing to them. Plus, to claim that they were removed from Him once again creates a contradiction with the other places where Paul indicates such is impossible.

No, they weren't removed, but the threat seemed to be a valid one, don't you think? That's why Paul said "if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." [Gal 5:2 KJV] Is it really possible that Christ can profit them NOTHING, and yet they still are saved? how are they saved outside of Christ? Maybe Paul was exaggerating when He said Christ would profit them NOTHING. Maybe he only meant Christ will profit you very little, and that very little is your whole eternal existence??

I still think it means that if belief in Christ is how we avail ourselves of His promises, and that belief goes away (they are not a believer), there's nothing left of Christ's promises. That seems to be the message to the Galatians--if they try to achieve salvation by any other means, they will fail.

Maybe it is like in this verse: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, [Gal 4:19 KJV] Christ being formed in them, and them being in Christ were a process, not an instant in time, similar to the sower and the seed. The process, when complete, leads to life eternal, but if we disallow Christ and His Spirit to work in us, we have rejected His promises.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is it possible that eternal life is more of a continuous gift, rather than a one-time gift?

The Christian has already received that gift. It is in his possession. And that gift will not be revoked or taken away from him:

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

According to your view the LORD will indeed revoke or take back the gift of eternal life which He has already given.

Or I'm fine with the idea that those who say they believe don't really believe in the cases where they fall away. But it makes no sense to say that someone who once said they believed and now says they don't believe can be considered a believer and thus a beneficiary of God's gift of eternal life.

It isn't a matter of what some may say. The LORD knows the heart of man and He knows who are the true believers and it is those who receive the gift of eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

But you say that they can perish.

Maybe you can help me to understand your position better--Can you point to anyone that professes to be an unbeliever that you know has received the gift of eternal life? Anyone? Anyone? Why do you argue so hard for unbelievers to be entitled to eternal life??

Only the LORD knows who He has given eternal life and those who receive the gift will not come into judgment (Jn.5:24). But you say that they can.

 

[Derf]

The Christian has already received that gift. It is in his possession. And that gift will not be revoked or taken away from him:

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Ro.11:29).​

According to your view the LORD will indeed revoke or take back the gift of eternal life which He has already given.



It isn't a matter of what some may say. The LORD knows the heart of man and He knows who are the true believers and it is those who receive the gift of eternal life. And the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

But you say that they can perish.



Only the LORD knows who He has given eternal life and those who receive the gift will not come into judgment (Jn.5:24). But you say that they can.

So you're saying that you don't even know if you have eternal life? If only the Lord knows, then we can have no assurance of our salvation, thus "security" for the believer is worthless.

But John gave us some idea of how we can know.
[1Jo 3:14, 23-24 KJV] 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. ... 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
And:
[1Jo 5:13 KJV] 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

There is nowhere in the bible that I know of that says that just because you call yourself a Christian that you have eternal life. We can know because we can see that the Spirit is working within us, to will and to do His good pleasure. (Phil 2:13 Oh! Was that Paul who said that???)

And if that's how we know, then the answer to the survey question MUST be "yes"--because the spirit is working in us to do what God wants, and sinning isn't included in what God wants.

 

[musterion]

No, they weren't removed, but the threat seemed to be a valid one, don't you think?

No, I don't.

You're not paying attention.

The way YOU are presupposing it to be true cannot be true because it creates contradictions that do not and CANNOT exist.

Until you have questioned your presuppositions on all of your Paul Said You Can Lose Your Justification verses, instead of ignoring the contradictions your position creates, further discussion will be fruitless.

If you want to talk with me on this, fine. First, nail down once and for all whether a person who has already been forgiven all trespasses and declared justified in Christ can then become unjustified and lost. I believe you already said "no" but when you keep raising these objections, you're talking out both sides of your mouth.

Your choice is really very simple: Either

a) forgiveness and justification in Christ cannot ever be lost

or

b) they can be lost.

PICK ONE.

 

[Nihilo]

Hi Nihilo,
Thanks for the response! What is interesting about your response is that it says to forget one law (relating to circumcision) and to DO another law. You've given me a new law to follow

Well, yeah! Look at Colossians 3:1-3 (KJV)! Is there anything in that that indicates to you that if you don't do it, you're not saved or you've lost your salvation?

Spoiler

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you're saying that you don't even know if you have eternal life?

That is not what I am saying. I already told you that I know that I have eternal life. My words about only the LORD knowing who has it were in answer to this question of yours:

Can you point to anyone that professes to be an unbeliever that you know has received the gift of eternal life?

Here is what I said earlier about me knowing that I have eternal life:

If you don't know that you have eternal life then you don't:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

Those with true faith KNOW that the things written in the Bible are true and we know that we have received the gift of eternal life:

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.12:11-12).​

The Lord has given us an understanding about these things:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

As I said before, those with true faith have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life is described as being "eternal" (1 Jn.5:11). The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

If the life a true believer has in the Lord Jesus could possibly come to an end then it was never eternal to begin with. But John tells us that we already possess a life in the Lord Jesus which is eternal.

That, my fried, is eternal security.

 

[Derf]

Well, yeah! Look at Colossians 3:1-3 (KJV)! Is there anything in that that indicates to you that if you don't do it, you're not saved or you've lost your salvation?

Spoiler

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Absolutely! It is describing what it looks like to be "risen with Christ", and what one would do if he were risen with Christ. It (along with the following verses) gives a standard of thought and behavior that Paul wanted the Colossians to follow. Thanks for pointing out one more list of behaviors Paul expected Christians to exhibit, just a couple verses down from your citation, and introduced by your citation:

• Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: [Col 3:5 KJV]
• For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: [Col 3:6 KJV]
• In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. [Col 3:7 KJV]
• But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. [Col 3:8 KJV]
• Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [Col 3:9 KJV]
• Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye. [Col 3:13 KJV]
• And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [Col 3:14 KJV]
• Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. [Col 3:18 KJV]
• Husbands, love [your] wives, and be not bitter against them. [Col 3:19 KJV]
• Children, obey [your] parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. [Col 3:20 KJV]
• Fathers, provoke not your children [to anger], lest they be discouraged. [Col 3:21 KJV]
• Servants, obey in all things [your] masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: [Col 3:22 KJV]

Do these things grant us salvation? No, not at all. But are they indicators of salvation? Yes they are. And a willingness to do them is an indicator of salvation. And that's what the survey was asking. The answer is obviously "yes", from Paul's point of view.

 

[Nihilo]

Do these things grant us salvation? No, not at all.

Agreed.

But are they indicators of salvation? Yes they are.

They are indicators of salvation if and only if the person is actually saved. And if they are absent, their absence is not an indication of a lack of Christian faith.

And a willingness to do them is an indicator of salvation. And that's what the survey was asking. The answer is obviously "yes", from Paul's point of view.

Does obeying Colossians 3:1-2 (KJV) constitute a saving willingness?