ECT Q for those who believe in salvation by grace thru faith in Christ w/o works

[Jerry Shugart]

For my part, I see enough things in the scripture that indicate an unrepentant person will not be with Christ for eternity that I at least question what it means.

The question is if those who already possess eternal life enjoy eternal security or if they can perish. So please answer the following four questions of mine. The Lord Jesus says this about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

(1) Once a person is given eternal life can they perish?

We also know that the eternal life enjoyed by Christians is described as being a "gift" (Ro.6:23) and the gifts of the Lord are without repentance:

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Ro.11:29).​

(2) Do you think that once the LORD gives someone the gift of eternal life then later He will take back that gift?

Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

(3) Do you think that once a person is given eternal left then that person will come into judgment concerning his salvation?

Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

(4) Do you believe that once a person comes to Christ then there is a possibility that at some time he will no longer be with Him?

Thanks!

 

[Derf]

The question is if those who already possess eternal life enjoy eternal security or if they can perish. So please answer the following four questions of mine. The Lord Jesus says this about those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).​

(1) Once a person is given eternal life can they perish?

Nice change of tense, Jerry. Jesus, here at least, is saying that he "gives" them eternal life, not that He "gave" them eternal life. What kind of eternal life does He give them? Is it a life that has no more death? In a sense, yes, but in a sense, no. In the "no" sense, we expect to die, but we also expect to have eternal life. These two things are antithetical. If one HAS eternal life, then one CAN'T die. Which of those people Jesus was talking about are still alive today? None of them. If we knew where to look, we could see their remains (This was Jesus' argument about David's current state).

So there are two choices: Jesus was talking about the fact that He will raise them from the dead, or He is talking about a different kind of "eternal" life than we are currently experiencing in our physical bodies. Or maybe He's talking about both.

Taking just the first option for a moment, He is saying that He will resurrect them AFTER they die, IF they are His sheep. Here's a larger excerpt:

[Jhn 10:25-29 NIV] 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.​

The difference Jesus was pointing out between those that were asking if He was really the messiah and those that already believed in Him is exactly that--His sheep already believed in Him. He is not sepcific as to whether their belief was a one-time thing or a life-long thing, but the tense tells us that they [currently, at the moment of Jesus' statement] believe. It also goes further to describe those that will never be snatched out of His hand as those that listen to His voice (remember the detractors were told already that He was the messiah, but they did NOT listen to His voice), and they follow Him, two conditions that surround the words "I know them".

In other conversations of ours, Jerry, you have pointed out that if God KNOWS us, then He knows us all the way through, whether our actions correspond with our faith, or not. I question, along with our brother James, whether it's possible that our actions can really belie our faith, at least over-all (certainly we all have times where we don't follow Christ in our actions, and need to be redirected). But if you are correct in this assertion, then there's no problem for you to consider that God knows whether we will continue to believe for the rest of our lives or not, and thus whether our current state of belief is true.

I don't really know for sure whether God KNOWS what we will do for the rest of our lives or not, thus my somewhat related question earlier in this thread. But I'm pretty certain that if someone is unwilling to obey Jesus's commands to him, if someone is unwilling to listen to His voice, if someone is unwilling to follow Him, that person doesn't seem to fit the criteria for being saved and being with Christ for all eternity. Why would they WANT to be with Christ for all eternity when they would constantly chafe under His authority?

Besides that, here is what the Lord Jesus said about those who believe and therefore have eternal life:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

(3) Do you think that once a person is given eternal left then that person will come into judgment concerning his salvation?

This goes back to the question: What does it mean to believe? remember that Jesus was pointing to belief in God ("believes him who sent me") in this verse rather than belief in Jesus. What does it mean to believe God (not "believe IN God", but "believe God")? It seems like to "believe God" means to accept what He says is true. If someone is not doing that, then they, by definition, DON'T believe God. And if they don't now, then either they have changed their mind about God or they never truly believed God in the first place. Which is it? Does God give eternal life to those that might not really believe?

Besides that, once a person comes to Christ he will always be with Him:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (Jn.6:37).​

(4) Do you believe that once a person comes to Christ then there is a possibility that at some time he will no longer be with Him?

What does it mean to "come to Christ"? There were quite a few people that "came to Christ" that later turned back (Luke 9:57-62, and):
[Jhn 6:66 NKJV] 66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
Obviously, those that were His disciples had at one time "come to Him", but now they were no longer "following Him" (they "walked with Him no more"). Is this the same as salvation? Peter thought so: [Jhn 6:68-69 NKJV] 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Let me explain that I have no desire to suggest to people that God is not able to save those that believe. But there is certainly a class of people that do not believe, and sometimes they disbelieve after at least some indication that they did believe at one point. We should never, in my mind, tell people that because they made a profession of faith at one point in their lives that they are secure for all eternity no matter what they believe now. (No matter what they DO now is another conversation.)

Rather, if anyone is a believer, he is assured of his salvation. And if anyone is not a believer, he is assured (as far as I know) of his condemnation. We can argue about how we get to be a believer, but I think my dichotomy is true.

 

[musterion]

Nice change of tense, Jerry. Jesus, here at least, is saying that he "gives" them eternal life, not that He "gave" them eternal life. What kind of eternal life does He give them? Is it a life that has no more death? In a sense, yes, but in a sense, no. In the "no" sense, we expect to die, but we also expect to have eternal life. These two things are antithetical. If one HAS eternal life, then one CAN'T die. Which of those people Jesus was talking about are still alive today? None of them. If we knew where to look, we could see their remains (This was Jesus' argument about David's current state).

So there are two choices: Jesus was talking about the fact that He will raise them from the dead, or He is talking about a different kind of "eternal" life than we are currently experiencing in our physical bodies. Or maybe He's talking about both.

Taking just the first option for a moment, He is saying that He will resurrect them AFTER they die, IF they are His sheep. Here's a larger excerpt:

[Jhn 10:25-29 NIV] 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.​

The difference Jesus was pointing out between those that were asking if He was really the messiah and those that already believed in Him is exactly that--His sheep already believed in Him. He is not sepcific as to whether their belief was a one-time thing or a life-long thing, but the tense tells us that they [currently, at the moment of Jesus' statement] believe. It also goes further to describe those that will never be snatched out of His hand as those that listen to His voice (remember the detractors were told already that He was the messiah, but they did NOT listen to His voice), and they follow Him, two conditions that surround the words "I know them".

In other conversations of ours, Jerry, you have pointed out that if God KNOWS us, then He knows us all the way through, whether our actions correspond with our faith, or not. I question, along with our brother James, whether it's possible that our actions can really belie our faith, at least over-all (certainly we all have times where we don't follow Christ in our actions, and need to be redirected). But if you are correct in this assertion, then there's no problem for you to consider that God knows whether we will continue to believe for the rest of our lives or not, and thus whether our current state of belief is true.

I don't really know for sure whether God KNOWS what we will do for the rest of our lives or not, thus my somewhat related question earlier in this thread. But I'm pretty certain that if someone is unwilling to obey Jesus's commands to him, if someone is unwilling to listen to His voice, if someone is unwilling to follow Him, that person doesn't seem to fit the criteria for being saved and being with Christ for all eternity. Why would they WANT to be with Christ for all eternity when they would constantly chafe under His authority?

This goes back to the question: What does it mean to believe? remember that Jesus was pointing to belief in God ("believes him who sent me") in this verse rather than belief in Jesus. What does it mean to believe God (not "believe IN God", but "believe God")? It seems like to "believe God" means to accept what He says is true. If someone is not doing that, then they, by definition, DON'T believe God. And if they don't now, then either they have changed their mind about God or they never truly believed God in the first place. Which is it? Does God give eternal life to those that might not really believe?

What does it mean to "come to Christ"? There were quite a few people that "came to Christ" that later turned back (Luke 9:57-62, and):
[Jhn 6:66 NKJV] 66 From that [time] many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
Obviously, those that were His disciples had at one time "come to Him", but now they were no longer "following Him" (they "walked with Him no more"). Is this the same as salvation? Peter thought so: [Jhn 6:68-69 NKJV] 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 "Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Let me explain that I have no desire to suggest to people that God is not able to save those that believe. But there is certainly a class of people that do not believe, and sometimes they disbelieve after at least some indication that they did believe at one point. We should never, in my mind, tell people that because they made a profession of faith at one point in their lives that they are secure for all eternity no matter what they believe now. (No matter what they DO now is another conversation.)

Rather, if anyone is a believer, he is assured of his salvation. And if anyone is not a believer, he is assured (as far as I know) of his condemnation. We can argue about how we get to be a believer, but I think my dichotomy is true.

Just answer the question. Can someone who is a member of Christ ever possibly be cast into the Lake of Fire and lost forever? Y or N.

 

[steko]

opcorn:

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nice change of tense, Jerry. Jesus, here at least, is saying that he "gives" them eternal life, not that He "gave" them eternal life.

Do you deny that He gave the believers who lived in the first century eternal life?

What kind of eternal life does He give them?

The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

The Christian is told that they have already been given a life which is described as being "eternal" (1 Jn.5:11). If they could possible lose that eternal life then that would mean that it was never "eternal" to begin with since that kind of life will never end.

Is it a life that has no more death?

Here is what the Lord Jesus said to the sister of Lazarus:

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (Jn.11:25-26).​

Those who believe receive eternal life (Jn.5:24) and when they die physically they will be raised from the dead and will never die again.

Do you believe the Lord Jesus?

The difference Jesus was pointing out between those that were asking if He was really the messiah and those that already believed in Him is exactly that--His sheep already believed in Him. He is not sepcific as to whether their belief was a one-time thing or a life-long thing, but the tense tells us that they [currently, at the moment of Jesus' statement] believe.

Those who believe are given eternal life the moment when they believe:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a person believes he receives eternal life. And the Lord Jesus says that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish. But you say that they can.

there's no problem for you to consider that God knows whether we will continue to believe for the rest of our lives or not, and thus whether our current state of belief is true.

Since the LORD knows a man's heart (1 Sam.16:6-7) then He will only give eternal life to those who truly believe and once they are given eternal life the Lord Jesus assures us that they will never perish. Besides that, the true believer knows that the truth will always be with him:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2 Jn.1-2).​

If you think that you could ever possibly stop believing sometime in the future then you do not possess saving faith.

What does it mean to "come to Christ"? There were quite a few people that "came to Christ" that later turned back (Luke 9:57-62, and):

The ones who come to Christ are the ones the Father gives Him (Jn.6:37) and since He knows men's hearts the only ones who He gives the Lord Jesus is those who truly believe and those who are given eternal life. And the Lord Jesus says that those will not be cast out.

So do you say that those to whom the Father gives to the Lord Jesus can be cast out?

 

[Derf]

Just answer the question. Can someone who is a member of Christ ever possibly be cast into the Lake of Fire and lost forever? Y or N.

By "a member of Christ", I assume you mean someone who has been granted eternal life through the blood of Jesus Christ. So your question is tautological. Would you like to rephrase your question?

 

[Derf]

Do you deny that He gave the believers who lived in the first century eternal life?

...

So do you say that those to whom the Father gives to the Lord Jesus can be cast out?

Anyone that has eternal life, I would expect to have eternal life. Knowing that one has eternal life is somewhat speculative, unless we assign a property that we can measure.

Would you like to suggest some ways to measure our likelihood for having eternal life? What criterion (assuming just one) would you use?

 

[musterion]

By "a member of Christ", I assume you mean someone who has been granted eternal life through the blood of Jesus Christ. So your question is tautological. Would you like to rephrase your question?

Can someone who is a member of Christ, and has His eternal life, ever possibly be cast into the Lake of Fire and lost forever? Y or N.

 

[Derf]

Can someone who is a member of Christ, and has His eternal life, ever possibly be cast into the Lake of Fire and lost forever? Y or N.

I don't think so.

How does one become a member of Christ?

 

[musterion]

I don't think so.

How does one become a member of Christ?

1 Cor 15:1-4

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Anyone that has eternal life, I would expect to have eternal life. Knowing that one has eternal life is somewhat speculative, unless we assign a property that we can measure.

Would you like to suggest some ways to measure our likelihood for having eternal life? What criterion (assuming just one) would you use?

If you don't know that you have eternal life then you don't:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

Those with true faith KNOW that the things written in the Bible are true and we know that we have received the gift of eternal life:

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.12:11-12).​

The Lord has given us an understanding about these things:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

As I said before, those with true faith have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life is described as being "eternal" (1 Jn.5:11). The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

If the life a true believer has in the Lord Jesus could possibly come to an end then it was never eternal to begin with. But John tells us that we already possess a life in the Lord Jesus which is eternal.

That, my fried, is eternal security.

 

[Interplanner]

If you don't know that you have eternal life then you don't:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

Those with true faith KNOW that the things written in the Bible are true and we know that we have received the gift of eternal life:

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.12:11-12).​

The Lord has given us an understanding about these things:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

As I said before, those with true faith have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life is described as being "eternal" (1 Jn.5:11). The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

If the life a true believer has in the Lord Jesus could possibly come to an end then it was never eternal to begin with. But John tells us that we already possess a life in the Lord Jesus which is eternal.

That, my fried, is eternal security.

Mostly good. Here is some important information about John's expression 'eternal life.' It is the life of the age. He meant the Messianic age. That age had begun in Christ and continues on forever because of Christ. By overlapping with THIS age, there is conflict.

One thing a person gains is a victory over death. This was announced way back, besides in Isaiah. Another is a victory over sin. Paul spoke most directly about this in I cor 15's quote of Isaiah 25:8.

This gaining of the life of the (Messianic) age can clarify why in John a person already "has" life and has passed from death to life, etc., as found in what Christ said in John. If Christ is the resurrection and the life, and a person is "in" him, the person has those things. The expression "in Christ" and the importance of it did not start with Paul as part of a package of things otherwise unknown. It is in John. But in John it sound poetic (we are in the vine and flock of Christ) whereas in Paul it has a way of sounding technical. They balance each other.

 

[Derf]

If you don't know that you have eternal life then you don't:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).​

Those with true faith KNOW that the things written in the Bible are true and we know that we have received the gift of eternal life:

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.12:11-12).​

The Lord has given us an understanding about these things:

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

As I said before, those with true faith have been given a life in Jesus Christ, and that life is described as being "eternal" (1 Jn.5:11). The Greek word translated "eternal" means "without end, never to cease, everlasting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

If the life a true believer has in the Lord Jesus could possibly come to an end then it was never eternal to begin with. But John tells us that we already possess a life in the Lord Jesus which is eternal.

That, my fried, is eternal security.

There are many religions that have faith in eternal security, which you have described. Our faith should be in the promises of Christ, the works of Christ, the death of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ. Not in tautology.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Danoh]

No...

It is eternal life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

It has no beginning and it has no end.

It is HIS life the Believer has been given.

And HIS life has forever been ETERNAL.

And that is referring to its' ETERNAL Power to sustain ITSELF.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

But you are focused on you.

 

[Derf]

No...

It is eternal life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

It has no beginning and it has no end.

It is HIS life the Believer has been given.

And HIS life has forever been ETERNAL.

And that is referring to its' ETERNAL Power to sustain ITSELF.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

But you are focused on you.

Ummm. Who were you replying to?

 

[Derf]

1 Cor 15:1-4

That's good. How is it that he says they must "hold fast" to it, so that they won't have believed in vain? It seems to me that one that "believed in vain" is one that does not receive the promise, because he didn't "hold fast". As we were talking about eternal life, I assume you mean this to apply to eternal life. Are you now saying that unless we "hold fast", we will not receive the eternal life Jesus (and Paul) promised? It sounds like we're talking about the same thing then.

Shall we explore what it means together?

 

[Danoh]

Ummm. Who were you replying to?

Interplanner.

The man is ever off at the races with The Three Stooges his Preterism represents.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Our faith should be in the promises of Christ, the works of Christ, the death of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ.

Do you not understand that the promise of eternal life is promised to believers (1 Jn.2:25)? Do you not understand the the Lord Jesus promised that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish?

Do you have faith in those promises?

 

[musterion]

That's good. How is it that he says they must "hold fast" to it, so that they won't have believed in vain? It seems to me that one that "believed in vain" is one that does not receive the promise, because he didn't "hold fast". As we were talking about eternal life, I assume you mean this to apply to eternal life. Are you now saying that unless we "hold fast", we will not receive the eternal life Jesus (and Paul) promised? It sounds like we're talking about the same thing then.

Shall we explore what it means together?

No, only because you haven't taken time to look at the totality of what Paul wrote on the matter, particularly in his last epistles.

 

[Derf]

No, only because you haven't taken time to look at the totality of what Paul wrote on the matter, particularly in his last epistles.

Ok. You were the one that reference that verse with no commentary on what you thought about it. Since it seemed to support my side, I wasn't sure where you were going with it.