Public Education is a Terrible Idea!

[Clete]

Yet I've never seen a conservative be so infatuated with an atheist like Ayn Rand (Paul Ryan and Rand Paul who are also Ayn Rand fans aren't conservative either).

Infatuated is too strong a term. Fascinated, I'd agree with. She was brilliant and right more than she was wrong.

Have you read any of her publications?

You've made that known many times with your mention of your tax dollars not being used to fund public education, something I hear frequently from Libertarians.

I don't deny having some issues in common with Libertarians but I disagree with as many things they promote as I agree with. They aren't half as intellectually consistent as Rand was. She'd be appalled by Rand Paul.

I'm doing it right now and doing pretty good.

If you are being serious, you're one post away from my ignore list.

I'm doing an entire segment on public education in my "Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 4" thread, showing how it made America great, how we lost that greatness and how to get it back.

You will not - will not - advocate a single thing for the government school system to do that the private sector couldn't do better.

Not only that but a divided house cannot stand. You cannot defeat one form of liberalism by advocating another. You'll end up defeating your own argument.

You're welcome to come over and defend your secular humanist agenda if you wish.

Which secular humanist agenda is that precisely? You don't even know me! You think I'm a libertarian! Ha!

You IGNORE the arguments made in my thread and instead make entirely unfounded assumptions that you then use to insult me and then you think that I'm going to participate in your thread. What a joke you are!

I'm a Christian conservative that happens to believe that the government has no right to be in the schooling business nor any other other business for that matter. It is MY right to decide what my children are taught. It is MY right to spend MY money on MY own education and that of my family (or whomever else I choose). The government has no right to spend the money I've earned on someone else's education. No one has a right to something that someone else has to produce. To advocate otherwise is to advocate theft and slavery.

Last chance. Either address the arguments made in either of the two opening posts or I'll just simply ignore you.


Clete

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Your ignorance has no boundaries. You speak against public education but have no knowledge of LGBTQ&Q clubs in many of them (they have clubs for children that "question" their sexual orientation, encouraging them to "experiment" with homosexuality).

Because I was unaware of homo clubs in public schools, my ignorance has no bounds?

Is that really what you intended to say?

I don't deny that they exist. I just hadn't heard anything about it till now. It certainly doesn't surprise me.

Your so-called expertise on the public school system isn't so expert at all.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
Again, your ignorance has no boundaries. Children that are sexually molested grow up being sexually confused and often times without therapy turn to homosexuality.

That was the point I was making! Homos reproduce by molesting children. Nearly all male homos were molested as children between the ages of 5 and 8 years old. This was a totally undisputed medical fact before it became politically incorrect to say it. Most kids that are molested do not grow up to be homos, regardless of their age when the assaults happened. And so not even sexual molestation is a particularly effective way to "make kids gay" and so homo clubs in public schools aren't going to work. Their worst effect will be on girls who are more likely to be influenced in a social manner to experiment with lesbianism but even that, in most cases, isn't going to "make the gay". It case psychological abuse, in most cases, to create enough sexual confusion in a child to "make him/her gay".

Such things as LGBT clubs, Days of Silence, etc. influence sexually and morally confused youth. Many experiment with homosexuality, others find their niche in the homosexual lifestyle.

This is not a reason to abandon children and our public education system which worked marvelously for close to 200 years.

 

[Town Heretic]

Public education is a great and noble and worthwhile idea. Like any great and noble and worthwhile idea there is never a shortage of nincompoops trying to muck it up in the name of progress or reclamation. The rest is elbow grease and good parenting.

 

[Clete]

Maybe if you're lucky Clete will tell you the story of how she was a fan of a serial killer who chopped the arms off of a 12 year old girl.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/01/how-ayn-rand-became-a-big-admirer-of-serial-killer-william-hickman/

This is called poisoning the well. It is a decidedly dishonest way of arguing.

Is this the sort of arguments you intend to use in this other thread of yours? If so, you'll convince no one.

Public schools weren't always secular. When they started in America the Bible was a book that was used in every classroom.

This is why its called "Progressivism". It always starts out palatable and then turns ugly. You will not succeed in making it better. It never ever ever gets better - ever. What they've done to education they'll do to health care. They'll do it for the same reasons and by the same means. It is the very nature of liberalism and cannot be otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Such things as LGBT clubs, Days of Silence, etc. influence sexually and morally confused youth. Many experiment with homosexuality, others find their niche in the homosexual lifestyle.

This is not a reason to abandon children and our public education system which worked marvelously for close to 200 years.

Not anywhere near 200 years and abandoning public education is not equivalent to abandoning children but that's not important.

What is important is this...

If sexual perversion is not a reason to abandon public education, what is?

What would the government school system have to do for you to advocate parents getting their children out of there, murder or rape?

If not sexual perversion, then what?


And just do me a favor and tell me straight up whether you intend to address even a single argument made either by me personally or presented in the opening post. Can you at least be that honest?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Yet I've never seen a conservative be so infatuated with an atheist like Ayn Rand (Paul Ryan and Rand Paul who are also Ayn Rand fans aren't conservative either).

Infatuated is too strong a term. Fascinated, I'd agree with. She was brilliant and right more than she was wrong.

What's so brilliant about Ayn Rand, her atheism? Her adultery? Her infatuation with serial killer William Hickman?

Have you read any of her publications?

I've not only been around enough Libertarians/Objectivists who like you worship that sick degenerate, I've read some of her writings.

I'll stick with Holy Scripture, it get's it right every time.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
You've made that known many times with your mention of your tax dollars not being used to fund public education, something I hear frequently from Libertarians.

I don't deny having some issues in common with Libertarians but I disagree with as many things they promote as I agree with. They aren't half as intellectually consistent as Rand was. She'd be appalled by Rand Paul.

Nope, Clete isn't infatuated with Ayn Rand at all.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I'm doing it right now and doing pretty good.

If you are being serious, you're one post away from my ignore list.

It sounds like the truth about your atheist hero is getting to you Clete.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I'm doing an entire segment on public education in my "Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 4" thread, showing how it made America great, how we lost that greatness and how to get it back.

You will not - will not - advocate a single thing for the government school system to do that the private sector couldn't do better.

Not only that but a divided house cannot stand. You cannot defeat one form of liberalism by advocating another. You'll end up defeating your own argument.

Herein lies your problem Clete: I'm starting off with the Biblical basis for educating youth. From their I'll be using the words of the Founding Fathers (who were by no means liberal in today's sense of the word) who were the founders of the public education system in America.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
You're welcome to come over and defend your secular humanist agenda if you wish.

Which secular humanist agenda is that precisely? You don't even know me! You think I'm a libertarian! Ha!

All of this talk about atheist Ayn Rand from you, yet I never once have seen you mention Holy Scripture as the source for all wisdom (I just love exposing Christian frauds, oh yes I do).

You IGNORE the arguments made in my thread and instead make entirely unfounded assumptions that you then use to insult me and then you think that I'm going to participate in your thread. What a joke you are!

You're a delicate little flower, I've been easy on you Clete.

I'm a Christian conservative that happens to believe that the government has no right to be in the schooling business nor any other other business for that matter. It is MY right to decide what my children are taught. It is MY right to spend MY money on MY own education and that of my family (or whomever else I choose). The government has no right to spend the money I've earned on someone else's education. No one has a right to something that someone else has to produce. To advocate otherwise is to advocate theft and slavery.

For a supposed Christian you sure do use the word "MY" a lot Clete. I get the feeling that your world is all about YOU.

Last chance. Either address the arguments made in either of the two opening posts or I'll just simply ignore you.


Clete

What, no "resting in Him"? Ignore me, it was worth exposing you.

 

[Clete]

Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
Yet I've never seen a conservative be so infatuated with an atheist like Ayn Rand (Paul Ryan and Rand Paul who are also Ayn Rand fans aren't conservative either).



What's so brilliant about Ayn Rand, her atheism? Her adultery? Her infatuation with serial killer William Hickman?



I've not only been around enough Libertarians/Objectivists who like you worship that sick degenerate, I've read some of her writings.

I'll stick with Holy Scripture, it get's it right every time.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
You've made that known many times with your mention of your tax dollars not being used to fund public education, something I hear frequently from Libertarians.



Nope, Clete isn't infatuated with Ayn Rand at all.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I'm doing it right now and doing pretty good.



It sounds like the truth about your atheist hero is getting to you Clete.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
I'm doing an entire segment on public education in my "Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 4" thread, showing how it made America great, how we lost that greatness and how to get it back.



Herein lies your problem Clete: I'm starting off with the Biblical basis for educating youth. From their I'll be using the words of the Founding Fathers (who were by no means liberal in today's sense of the word) who were the founders of the public education system in America.


Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
You're welcome to come over and defend your secular humanist agenda if you wish.



All of this talk about atheist Ayn Rand from you, yet I never once have seen you mention Holy Scripture as the source for all wisdom (I just love exposing Christian frauds, oh yes I do).



You're a delicate little flower, I've been easy on you Clete.



For a supposed Christian you sure do use the word "MY" a lot Clete. I get the feeling that the your world is all about YOU.



What, no "resting in Him"? Ignore me, it was worth exposing you.

I'm so very disappointed. :down:

:wave2:

 

[Clete]

I will not be responding to any post that does not specifically address the arguments presented in opening two posts.

If the thread dies, so be it.

 

[glorydaz]

Further, the facts remain that:
(a) most parents are effectively compelled to send their children to State schools, since they are taxed to support these schools and cannot afford to pay the additional fees required to send their children to private schools;
(b) the standards of education, controlling all schools,
are prescribed by the State;
(c) the growing trend in American education is for the government to exert wider and wider control over every aspect of education.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yep, not only compelled because of the taxes and being unable to afford private schools, but in many states it's illegal to teach your kids at home. When I lived in Virginia, I had to join Home School Legal Defense in case I was caught and prosecuted. I claimed a religious exemption, and had to jump through lots of hoops....always wondering if I'd have to call in my lawyers. It's ridiculous parents have to get the state's permission. I was relieved when we moved back to Oregon, where there were so many home school groups we just got lost in the crowd.

 

[Clete]

Yep, not only compelled because of the taxes and being unable to afford private schools, but in many states it's illegal to teach your kids at home. When I lived in Virginia, I had to join Home School Legal Defense in case I was caught and prosecuted. I claimed a religious exemption, and had to jump through lots of hoops....always wondering if I'd have to call in my lawyers. It's ridiculous parents have to get the state's permission. I was relieved when we moved back to Oregon, where there were so many home school groups we just got lost in the crowd.

I've experienced the financial pressure first hand.

In Oklahoma you can do pretty much whatever you want except not pay your property taxes in support of the government schools. We found it acceptable to use the charter school system there because there wasn't such a great amount of overtly liberal concepts taught in the curriculum that we couldn't easily overcome it in the home. Plus, we at least saw some of the benefit of our own tax dollars. Financially, it was our only option apart from just simply sending them to public school.

In Texas its similar except that if you just moved to the state, they won't allow you to use the charter school system unless your child has attended a regular brick and mortar school for one school year. I've been most astounded by the force with which the public schools pound away at the kids to think in terms of the group rather than as individuals. It's literally everywhere! That and they are just mindless when it comes to rules. The more senseless the rule, the more fiercely its enforced. Rules are to be obeyed, not because they make sense and not because they benefit anyone but because they are the rules. It is clearly an intentional attempt to indoctrinate state-ism.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Yep, not only compelled because of the taxes and being unable to afford private schools, but in many states it's illegal to teach your kids at home. When I lived in Virginia, I had to join Home School Legal Defense in case I was caught and prosecuted. I claimed a religious exemption, and had to jump through lots of hoops....always wondering if I'd have to call in my lawyers. It's ridiculous parents have to get the state's permission. I was relieved when we moved back to Oregon, where there were so many home school groups we just got lost in the crowd.

You have a God-hating bisexual as governor, what makes you think that you're safe from the secular humanist movement in Oregon?

I see that you reported me, are you afraid of debate. Why are you attempting to silence me? What is a "thread pest"? Is it being a "pest" to question the legitimacy of a atheist who was also an adulterer and a worshipper of a serial killer?

 

[aCultureWarrior]

As a supplement to the argument presented in the opening post I offer this short piece from Rand that is not specifically on the topic of public education but on the larger issue of "the common good".

“Common Good”​

The tribal notion of “the common good” has served as the moral justification of most social systems—and of all tyrannies—in history. The degree of a society’s enslavement or freedom corresponded to the degree to which that tribal slogan was invoked or ignored.

“The common good” (or “the public interest”) is an undefined and undefinable concept: there is no such entity as “the tribe” or “the public”; the tribe (or the public or society) is only a number of individual men. Nothing can be good for the tribe as such; “good” and “value” pertain only to a living organism—to an individual living organism—not to a disembodied aggregate of relationships.

“The common good” is a meaningless concept, unless taken literally, in which case its only possible meaning is: the sum of the good of all the individual men involved. But in that case, the concept is meaningless as a moral criterion: it leaves open the question of what is the good of individual men and how does one determine it?...​

Contrary to what the atheist writes, the common good is used in many aspects of society:

Military, roads and yes, public education.

Which is better, to have all children have access to education or to have them running amuck without even knowing how to read and write?​

 

[brewmama]

Home schooling is also very problematic, because too many home schooling parents are extremely conservative Christians who do a woefully inadequate job and also teach their kids that the world is only 6,000 years old, created in one week , Adam & Eve, a garden of Eden and a talking snake actually existed , dinosaurs existed at the same time as humans, Noah and his ark actually existed , etc and that God made Eve out of Adams rib .
They teach their kids to be woefully ignorant of science , to be intolerant of anyone who does not share their religious and political beliefs, and to be hostile to gay people ,among other things which will handicap them for life .

Proof?

 

[glorydaz]

You have a God-hating bisexual as governor, what makes you think that you're safe from the secular humanist movement in Oregon?

What makes you think I think I'm safe from secular humanists in Oregon? Think, ACW, it would save you a lot of wasted words.

I see that you reported me, are you afraid of debate.

You weren't debating.

Why are you attempting to silence me?

Because you were ruining this thread, and you were making snide remarks about Clete who did nothing to deserve having his thread disrupted by you and your personal agenda.

What is a "thread pest"? Is it being a "pest" to question the legitimacy of a atheist who was also an adulterer and a worshipper of a serial killer?

This thread was not about the legitimacy of an atheist. It is about the legitimacy of public schools. And you know it very well. :down:

 

[glorydaz]

Contrary to what the atheist writes, the common good is used in many aspects of society:

Military, roads and yes, public education.

Which is better, to have all children have access to education or to have them running amuck without even knowing how to read and write?

See, you didn't even read what Clete had written. You simply saw "the atheist" and your bile came up in your throat and you spewed it out on us. :down:

 

[glorydaz]

I've been most astounded by the force with which the public schools pound away at the kids to think in terms of the group rather than as individuals. It's literally everywhere! That and they are just mindless when it comes to rules. The more senseless the rule, the more fiercely its enforced. Rules are to be obeyed, not because they make sense and not because they benefit anyone but because they are the rules. It is clearly an intentional attempt to indoctrinate state-ism.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Yep, it's horrible. I took my oldest child out of school when she came home and told me about having to choose who to save if there wasn't room in the lifeboat. Values classes they called them. They wanted second graders to put value on human beings....teacher, firemen, grandmother, bum etc....who would they choose to throw overboard. She was really upset, saying she didn't know who to choose. And that was many years ago. Now they get in trouble for hugging a friend.....and as you say, the "rules" are so arbitrary and change at the drop of a hat (kinda like the weather here in Oregon).

 

[Arthur Brain]

You have a God-hating bisexual as governor, what makes you think that you're safe from the secular humanist movement in Oregon?

I see that you reported me, are you afraid of debate. Why are you attempting to silence me? What is a "thread pest"? Is it being a "pest" to question the legitimacy of a atheist who was also an adulterer and a worshipper of a serial killer?

Oh quit with the martyr stuff already. There's no such thing as a "debate" with you. It's just you spouting off and scurrying away when you're shown up time and again.

 

[jgarden]

Ayn Rand

Ayn Rand (/ˈaɪn ˈrænd/; born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum, Russian: Али́са Зино́вьевна Розенба́ум; February 2 [O.S. January 20] 1905 – March 6, 1982) was a Russian-born American novelist, philosopher,[2] playwright, and screenwriter. She is known for her two best-selling novels, The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, and for developing a philosophical system she called Objectivism. Born and educated in Russia, Rand moved to the United States in 1926.

..... She later recalled that, while in high school, she determined that she was an atheist and that she valued reason above any other human virtue. After graduating from high school in the Crimea at 16, Rand returned with her family to Petrograd (as Saint Petersburg was renamed at that time) ...

After the Russian Revolution, universities were opened to women, allowing Rand to be in the first group of women to enroll at Petrograd State University, where, at the age of 16, she began her studies in the department of social pedagogy, majoring in history. At the university she was introduced to the writings of Aristotle and Plato, who would be her greatest influence and counter-influence, respectively.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Public Education is a Terrible Idea!

Now ironic that Rand would oppose public education - the very system that exposed her to the Greek philosophers who influence her thinking!

 

[gcthomas]

Values classes they called them. They wanted second graders to put value on human beings....teacher, firemen, grandmother, bum etc....who would they choose to throw overboard. She was really upset, saying she didn't know who to choose. And that was many years ago.

That sounds like, when pushed to think about it, the children concluded that everyone has value.

Was that such a wrong outcome?

 

[glassjester]

The best solution is to simply get the government out of the education business altogether. If we let the free market do its job, we won't turn into an uneducated society. On the contrary, we will be the educational envy of the entire world.

I will guess by your OP that, under a completely commercialized education system, you'd also make education 100% voluntary. Right?

So how about an estimate? What percentage of citizens would end up receiving no education at all? Just take your best guess - for the sake of argument.