Prove That Sunday Is The Christian Sabbath

TrevorL

Well-known member
Greetings again clefty,
You are fortunate I have two sandals...ha
If you resume you should try to make your Posts clearer, as this one seems to be obscure to me.
Hath ceased from his own works...as Yah did from His...His day His rest from His works...His Day given for our rest from our works...and when this day of rest is over we continue to work...as He did in His...
Verse 11 “Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief”
All this was written to the Hebrews Jews living greek...who fully understand to enter THAT rest lest any of them fall into disobedience as their ancestors did making an example not to follow...but remain obedient to the law...labor and enter THAT rest and remain obedient and NOT like those in verse 4-6...
They failed because of unbelief. Thy most probably kept the Sabbath in detail, but failed to understand what the Sabbath taught. The Sabbath under the Law was a reminder every seven days of the true Rest in Christ. Like many aspects of the Law, they were continually repeated. Like the various offerings, the morning and evening burnt offerings, but these offerings were replaced by the one offering of Jesus, effective for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

clefty

New member
Murder is worthless and so is observing special days.
observing the law is worthless? Wow just wow...the irony as you claim there are works yet to do...





You are falsely accusing me, and you falsely judge the Apostle Paul who says special days are worthless when it comes to salvation.

Umm nope just reading what you post...

You should read Paul as carefully...

NOWHERE does he say that...

He says the Galatians falling back to when they did not know God and observing their weak and beggarly customs were a stress to him but not that they were going back to the Torah again...they never had the Torah...

Works for salvation were never worthy...always filthy menstrual rags...

Believers have faith first and then obey...even in the Torah

They had faith and were saved from slavery and THEN given the law...do this and live
 

clefty

New member
Greetings again clefty, If you resume you should try to make your Posts clearer, as this one seems to be obscure to me. They failed because of unbelief. Thy most probably kept the Sabbath in detail, but failed to understand what the Sabbath taught. The Sabbath under the Law was a reminder every seven days of the true Rest in Christ. Like many aspects of the Law, they were continually repeated. Like the various offerings, the morning and evening burnt offerings, but these offerings were replaced by the one offering of Jesus, effective for ever.
they failed keeping the law sabbath included at one point He despised them their sabbaths and sacrifices

They disobeyed and failed to enter the rest of the promised land...even if they did make it they would still have to work though...and is why the Sabbath is given...

We are to enter this rest...this Sabbatismos remaining JUST AS Yah entered His rest...He did NOT enter a rest known as His Son...but a seventh day of rest...

His Son even had to chastised them for NOT keeping the Sabbath but their own rules...still again

And He would know as He is Lord of the Sabbath not Lord of Himself...

why would Lord of London even want to destroy or replace London...or the Lord of the Rings his rings? And neither of course become that which they represent...it remains a sign to their authority...as does the Sabbath signifying His and given as a sign to His people who understand we are to live as He did...keep the commandments as He did...and abide in His love...
 

clefty

New member
Greetings again clefty, If you resume you should try to make your Posts clearer, as this one seems to be obscure to me. They failed because of unbelief. Thy most probably kept the Sabbath in detail, but failed to understand what the Sabbath taught. The Sabbath under the Law was a reminder every seven days of the true Rest in Christ. Like many aspects of the Law, they were continually repeated. Like the various offerings, the morning and evening burnt offerings, but these offerings were replaced by the one offering of Jesus, effective for ever.

Again the verses 4-6 foreshadow exactly what rest was being discussed to this letter to the Hebrews...

Keep in mind false witnesses and wolves in sheeps clothing were already around spreading rumors Paul taught a change of the law...
 

God's Truth

New member
observing the law is worthless? Wow just wow...the irony as you claim there are works yet to do...

You are a twister just look at you.

What you are doing is actually a sin, it is to bear false witness.

Murdering is worthless and as is the old purification works of the law.

Umm nope just reading what you post...

You should read Paul as carefully...

NOWHERE does he say that...

He says the Galatians falling back to when they did not know God and observing their weak and beggarly customs were a stress to him but not that they were going back to the Torah again...they never had the Torah...

Works for salvation were never worthy...always filthy menstrual rags...

Believers have faith first and then obey...even in the Torah

They had faith and were saved from slavery and THEN given the law...do this and live

Nowhere does the Bible say that doing the works of the law are filthy rags. You have no sense IMHO.
 

God's Truth

New member
You were taught to misunderstand the filthy rag scripture.

How do you EVER get that obeying God is as a filthy rag?!

The Jews who had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, which included offering BLOOD, God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering and not really be sorry for their sins; that made the blood offering as a menstrual bloody rag offering. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals for their blood as a filthy rag.


Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Our righteous act of FAITH in Jesus is a filthy rag if we do not OBEY HIM. Faith alone is like a DEAD BODY. See James 2:29.
 

clefty

New member
You are a twister just look at you.

What you are doing is actually a sin, it is to bear false witness.

Murdering is worthless and as is the old purification works of the law.
project much? Or just sometimes...

I asked if another Law like thou shalt not murder is worthless and you said it is...

The irony continues as you claim I sin baring false witness when keeping the law is worthless to your IMHO...as you keep repeating...

and I am not baring false witness as I have just shown...as you insist special days and thou shalt not murder are worthless...



Nowhere does the Bible say that doing the works of the law are filthy rags.
unto salvation yes Paul says exactly that...

So not sure why you think keeping Sabbath is worthless as I have shown you it is kept after grace is received after faith and repentance and by those who are saved and NOW want to live JUST AS He did...

You have no sense IMHO
yes you are helping confirm what we know to be the problem...your IMHO
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
fair enough then clarify yourself with why the day of rest no longer is customary but the day of assembly is...actually not even the whole day but just a few hours in the morning early afternoon...
You're getting closer, but still missing something.

Sabbath rest is still customary. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9) The majority of workers have Saturday off. Viva la weekend! However you want to express it, Sabbath hasn't been done away with.

It was exemplified many times that they assembled to worship and rest on that day ordained...Yahushua Himself assembled on that day and beyond the one He announced His ministry open for business...
Worship? no. Sabbath is not about worship, or offering any sort of service to God. Service is the opposite of rest.

Consider the Sabbath prohibition on long travel. It prevents any major assembly, allowing only for small local groupings. As for those local gatherings (synagogue), their purpose was reading and reflection. Synagogue by definition does not include a brass band, sermon, or other organized worship. It is closer to being a library than what one would think of as a church today.

If one wished to make or hear speeches, play music, debate after the dialectic fashion, or have a communal meal - all the things that constitute what we typically think of as church - in the 1st/2nd century he had to wait until Market Day to do so. These things are out of order for Sabbath. Fortunately, Market Day always follows the Sabbath, so there isn't long to wait.
 

clefty

New member
You're getting closer, but still missing something.

Sabbath rest is still customary. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Heb 4:9) The majority of workers have Saturday off. Viva la weekend! However you want to express it, Sabbath hasn't been done away with.
ok good...


Worship? no. Sabbath is not about worship, or offering any sort of service to God. Service is the opposite of rest.
in the OT it was double sacrifices to the temple...so corporate gathering and sacrifice...

Consider the Sabbath prohibition on long travel. It prevents any major assembly, allowing only for small local groupings. As for those local gatherings (synagogue), their purpose was reading and reflection. Synagogue by definition does not include a brass band, sermon, or other organized worship. It is closer to being a library than what one would think of as a church today.
WWJD? Well he met in the synagogues even launched His ministry in one reading out loud the prophet of isaiah who also says we will still meet again Sabbath to Sabbath in the time to yet come...

meeting PRAYING reading reflection and debate...Paul met repeatedly specifically on Sabbath with other Jews AND Gentiles and told the gentiles to return the next Sabbath to hear more...NOT THE NEXT DAY

and he met in synagogues even baptized EUROPE’S first convert into the church of the wilderness...and of course at the temple...and on other days...

Paul instructed corporate worship did not mention anything about on the first day for assembly (but you did say at first that God established it during the time of the apostles but then bumped it back...)

Well I do wish it was back to being more like a library it is true...the brass band big show production hysteria and hype needs to be avoided...as do the shouting showtime sermons...but meeting to fellowship and worship was done and even WWJDid...

If one wished to make or hear speeches, play music, debate after the dialectic fashion, or have a communal meal - all the things that constitute what we typically think of as church - in the 1st/2nd century he had to wait until Market Day to do so. These things are out of order for Sabbath. Fortunately, Market Day always follows the Sabbath, so there isn't long to wait.

A second day? Sure by all means...provided you get some work done as the commandment which calls for work six days is NOT abolished or destroyed as He was quite clear we are supposed to DO NOT THINK so...

Ironically the 1st day of the week was already established in the OT to meet at least twice in His calendar year...once for first fruits which followed the Sabbath after Passovera and of course Pentecost...also on the first day of the week...and there they were meeting when it turned out to be a sort of birthday party of the church...I say sort of cuz I with Stephen who was killed think the church began in the wilderness...LONG AGO

And of course Yahushua set the standard for the new covenant age through His teaching and demonstrations of Sabbath keeping and then signed it with His blood and sealed it with His death...the death of testator=NO CHANGE TO THE COVENANT...

and sure enough His followers still hurried to keep that first day of the new age covenant Holy

But yes they also did meet as you say its second day...that first day of the week meeting was for fear of the jews...odd reason for assembly that one
 
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God's Truth

New member
project much? Or just sometimes...

I asked if another Law like thou shalt not murder is worthless and you said it is...

The irony continues as you claim I sin baring false witness when keeping the law is worthless to your IMHO...as you keep repeating...

and I am not baring false witness as I have just shown...as you insist special days and thou shalt not murder are worthless...

You are dishonest. I do not say what you say I say.

unto salvation yes Paul says exactly that...

So not sure why you think keeping Sabbath is worthless as I have shown you it is kept after grace is received after faith and repentance and by those who are saved and NOW want to live JUST AS He did...

You have proven no such thing.

The scriptures say plainly that special days are worthless and not to let anyone judge you by it; and, if you are a Jew preaching we have to do it, then you are a bitter root. If you are someone talked into doing it, then you have fallen from grace.

Just ask for the scriptures again if you don't remember them.
 

clefty

New member
You are dishonest. I do not say what you say I say.



You have proven no such thing.

The scriptures say plainly that special days are worthless and not to let anyone judge you by it; and, if you are a Jew preaching we have to do it, then you are a bitter root. If you are someone talked into doing it, then you have fallen from grace.

Just ask for the scriptures again if you don't remember them.

Sure...post those scriptures again...and I will show you...

Dont forget to include the “Thou shalt not murder is worthless now” one too...
 

clefty

New member
So murder is not worthless?

You kept saying murder and special days are worthless...

I kept saying the commands not to murder and keep the special days are not worthless...

Especially Sabbath that is included in His top 10 list...comes in at 4 above murder even...

Maybe that is what He instructed prayers be said that in future times of trouble people dont have to flee on the Sabbath because that really isnt resting...

He didnt say anything about prayers be said that in future times of trouble people didnt have to kill...or even be killed...Just that prayers be said the Sabbath be not broken...oh and that the pregnant to have to flee in winter...that would be tough too...
 

God's Truth

New member
You kept saying murder and special days are worthless...

I kept saying the commands not to murder and keep the special days are not worthless...

So is murder worthless?

No, you kept saying I said 'do not murder' is worthless.

The Bible says 'do not murder' and 'special days are worthless'.

So do you obey both those commands?
 

clefty

New member
So is murder worthless?

No, you kept saying I said 'do not murder' is worthless.

The Bible says 'do not murder' and 'special days are worthless'.

So do you obey both those commands?

Uh oh building up to something I think...hmmm how is the pharisee gonna try and trap me now?

It’s been quite clear that the Yah’s top 10 still are binding...how about you just list that top ten of His for us to do to remain in His love...
 

Wick Stick

Well-known member
in the OT it was double sacrifices to the temple...so corporate gathering and sacrifice...
In the OT, Sabbath travel was heavily restricted, so the only people doing those sacrifices were the priests, king, and those living within Jerusalem proper. The temple sacrifices receive a disproportionate amount of attention in the OT, but only the ones at the major feasts would have been relevant to most people.

WWJD? Well he met in the synagogues even launched His ministry in one reading out loud the prophet of isaiah who also says we will still meet again Sabbath to Sabbath in the time to yet come...
Since you brought it up, do you remember Jesus' sermon on that reading in Isaiah? No? Actually, neither does anyone else, because when He finished reading, He simply said it was fulfilled, and then SAT DOWN. Because there are no sermons in synagogue.

meeting PRAYING reading reflection and debate...Paul met repeatedly specifically on Sabbath with other Jews AND Gentiles and told the gentiles to return the next Sabbath to hear more...NOT THE NEXT DAY
If they had returned the next day, nobody would have been there. Everyone would have been at the agora, or the pnux. Paul preached wherever the people were. On Saturday, that was at synagogue.

Paul instructed corporate worship did not mention anything about on the first day for assembly (but you did say at first that God established it during the time of the apostles but then bumped it back...)
It's towards the end of the apostolic period. See the Didache. Market Day at the agora was where meat was bought and sold... and much of that meat had been sacrificed to idols, which was an issue for the early church. The church instituted a Sunday assembly in competition to the Market, and held outside the city, ensuring that nobody could participate in both. It is modeled on Greek political practice rather than synagogue (i.e. it's something totally different than Sabbath).

Well I do wish it was back to being more like a library it is true...the brass band big show production hysteria and hype needs to be avoided...as do the shouting showtime sermons...but meeting to fellowship and worship was done and even WWJDid...
Look up the word worship in your concordance. Group worship is only associated with the temple cult. Other usages are only of individuals, usually of those who were compelled to confess and "give glory to God." Only the Corinthians are recorded as performing, and Paul writes to them to tell them to STOP DOING THAT.

A second day? Sure by all means...provided you get some work done as the commandment which calls for work six days is NOT abolished or destroyed as He was quite clear we are supposed to DO NOT THINK so...
Yes, a second day. It isn't a day for rest, but it is a day for meeting, and that meeting was largely about economics and communication - the collection and distribution of food, the laying by of alms, seeing to the widows, etc. The early church was run as a koinonia or a trade guild.

It would seem that our disagreement is principally about what is supposed to happen on the Sabbath. We both have rest high on the list, but you would add a number of things which I would consider prohibited.
 

God's Truth

New member
Uh oh building up to something I think...hmmm how is the pharisee gonna try and trap me now?

It’s been quite clear that the Yah’s top 10 still are binding...how about you just list that top ten of His for us to do to remain in His love...

Jesus fulfilled the scriptures.

The purification works are worthless.
 

clefty

New member
In the OT, Sabbath travel was heavily restricted, so the only people doing those sacrifices were the priests, king, and those living within Jerusalem proper. The temple sacrifices receive a disproportionate amount of attention in the OT, but only the ones at the major feasts would have been relevant to most people.
travel was actually relaxed by the time of the apostles as for what received attention I have no say...what the Holy Spirit wanted was recorded for our salvation

Since you brought it up, do you remember Jesus' sermon on that reading in Isaiah? No? Actually, neither does anyone else, because when He finished reading, He simply said it was fulfilled, and then SAT DOWN. Because there are no sermons in synagogue.
or that sermon recorded as unique as it was the BEST


If they had returned the next day, nobody would have been there.
well if gentiles crowded the synagogue on Sabbath I am sure they wouldnt mind coming to hear more the next day...
Everyone would have been at the agora, or the pnux. Paul preached wherever the people were. On Saturday, that was at synagogue.
Not everyone was at the synagogue on the Sabbath just those interested...but it is true he did preach outside it too...and on different days...but NOT that the laws customs and traditions of the fathers were changed...

It's towards the end of the apostolic period. See the Didache. Market Day at the agora was where meat was bought and sold... and much of that meat had been sacrificed to idols, which was an issue for the early church.
not sure why if all that was abolished at the cross...

The church instituted a Sunday assembly in competition to the Market, and held outside the city, ensuring that nobody could participate in both. It is modeled on Greek political practice rather than synagogue (i.e. it's something totally different than Sabbath).
oh ok...thought God did it...invented first day assembly day...


Look up the word worship in your concordance. Group worship is only associated with the temple cult. Other usages are only of individuals, usually of those who were compelled to confess and "give glory to God." Only the Corinthians are recorded as performing, and Paul writes to them to tell them to STOP DOING THAT.
here is a look at what synagogue life was like:

https://www.thattheworldmayknow.com/he-went-to-synagogue


Yes, a second day. It isn't a day for rest, but it is a day for meeting, and that meeting was largely about economics and communication - the collection and distribution of food, the laying by of alms, seeing to the widows, etc. The early church was run as a koinonia or a trade guild.
yes yes but Sabbath remained and for reading scripture and prayer discussion and sermons and well that is worship...without all the pomp and pageantry developed in later years...

It would seem that our disagreement is principally about what is supposed to happen on the Sabbath. We both have rest high on the list, but you would add a number of things which I would consider prohibited.
hope the link helped to clarify...could look up more but tired right now...need rest...
 

clefty

New member
You are dishonest. I do not say what you say I say.



You have proven no such thing.

The scriptures say plainly that special days are worthless and not to let anyone judge you by it; and, if you are a Jew preaching we have to do it, then you are a bitter root. If you are someone talked into doing it, then you have fallen from grace.

Just ask for the scriptures again if you don't remember them.

Still waiting to show you...
 
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