ECT Proper Understanding of Romans 11
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heir
TOL Subscriber
will not be found by following the link.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Romans 11:1-36
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
That is a lot to understand.
That is a lot to rightly divide. II Timothy 2:15
One of the foundational truths to note is that the chapter begins by talking about Israel, not Christianity.
Then it switches to speaking to Gentiles, who are neither Christian nor Israel.
It must be clear in any Biblical students mind that the three groups, Judeans, Gentiles and the church of God are mutually exclusive and that they cover all mankind.
I Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Without noting the different addressees of within this chapter, any reasonable discussion of this chapter will be short lived
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And why did you open up another thread linking to a thread you only opened up just a week or so ago? Most people would simply bump the thread
I'm not most people
I added a post to the MAD forum thread on Romans 11.
Then I thought to add this one here for people who might not visit the MAD forum.
Its a practice I have been thinking on lately.
Whereas merely bumping a thread leaves it at the mercy of people's "I've seen that already" assumptions.
Even the Scripture will often say the same thing in different ways, I suspect for a similar reason - because too many will read too soon into a thing.
I have both parts as a Word doc, but they are each about six pages long, as he went into every aspect rather thoroughly. He spent a great deal of time around Jordan years ago and came away with a lot of detail about a great many subjects and their various issues that few often cover.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I'll assume that having opened two threads within a week of one another, that you want to have a discussion and not just post links. So, how about some bullet points summarizing what the article(s) say and let's get this party started! Even better yet, summarize what YOU believe and bring the conversation on!I'm not most people
I added a post to the MAD forum thread on Romans 11.
Then I thought to add this one here for people who might not visit the MAD forum.
Its a practice I have been thinking on lately.
Whereas merely bumping a thread leaves it at the mercy of people's "I've seen that already" assumptions.
Even the Scripture will often say the same thing in different ways, I suspect for a similar reason - because too many will read too soon into a thing.
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Knowing my penchant for brevity, I believe I can summarize Romans 11 in less than 100 words.
Knowing my penchant for brevity, I believe I can summarize Romans 11 in less than 100 words.
:up:
View attachment 20354
heir
TOL Subscriber
Okay, for some reason I read that like a Name That Tune bid. So if and when you have time, Name that tune! I mean, summarize Romans 11 in less than 100 words!Knowing my penchant for brevity, I believe I can summarize Romans 11 in less than 100 words.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Romans 11:1-36
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
That is a lot to understand.
That is a lot to rightly divide. II Timothy 2:15
One of the foundational truths to note is that the chapter begins by talking about Israel, not Christianity.
Then it switches to speaking to Gentiles, who are neither Christian nor Israel.
It must be clear in any Biblical students mind that the three groups, Judeans, Gentiles and the church of God are mutually exclusive and that they cover all mankind.
I Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Without noting the different addressees of within this chapter, any reasonable discussion of this chapter will be short lived
Evidently, rightly dividing the word of truth by noting to whom certain passages are addressed to is an unknown subject on this website.
I thank God for Victor Paul Wierwille and The Way International who taught me to look for these important truths.
The rest will continue to debate and guess and debate and guess
Knowing my penchant for brevity, I believe I can summarize Romans 11 in less than 100 words.
Consider that brevity is as much the very problem of just about all on here at odds with one another as is too much.
In this, both humility and arrogance often end up ignorance looking like one or the other.
Too much often can overcomplicate and can miss a little that is key.
While too little can often oversimplify, and as a result, often miss much that matters.
True, Wierwille and The Way International have been known for their great emphasis on in depth Bible study and its principles.
From my own past dealings with some of them here and there; their thick KJV's worn from cover to cover, and just as chockfull of notes from much study - I could see that and was greatly impressed by it.
I also came away concluding the man and his movement are nevertheless first rate heresy.
Do they still assert that the Spirit is not a person, for example?
No, not always. Sometime I'll post a thread and let it go its own coarse. Other times, I'll think on something and return to it.
Again, heir, the reason for a second thread (this one here) was towards voicing some of this over here for those who might not frequent the MAD forum.
While I made it a link here for the same reason I have added the summary on that link - because I want to save them in the MAD forum, as MAD is what they are based on.
Whether or not you agree with those last seven words
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
My goal would be to simplify, but not overly.
I'd rib you back, but one of yours might take it wrong :chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
Romans 11:1-36
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
That is a lot to understand.
That is a lot to rightly divide. II Timothy 2:15
One of the foundational truths to note is that the chapter begins by talking about Israel, not Christianity.
Then it switches to speaking to Gentiles, who are neither Christian nor Israel.
It must be clear in any Biblical students mind that the three groups, Judeans, Gentiles and the church of God are mutually exclusive and that they cover all mankind.
I Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
Without noting the different addressees of within this chapter, any reasonable discussion of this chapter will be short lived
Your line about 'then this part is to gentiles who are neither jewish or Christian' shows that you don't know how to work the material. The gentiles being spoken to were Christian ones.
Interplanner
Well-known member
summary: Paul wants his countrymen to join the mission of the Gospel. That is the only "Israel" that will be saved (justified from their sins; he never meant a future restored theocracy). The things quoted from Isaiah are already in existence. God does not have an outstanding bill with the ethnos Israel to pay up.
[does anyone know how to stop the ads from bumping you to where they are so you have to find your spot all over again?]
[does anyone know how to stop the ads from bumping you to where they are so you have to find your spot all over again?]
And why did you open up another thread linking to a thread you only opened up just a week or so ago? Most people would simply bump the thread
He realized most are not posting in the theology club at theology website. :idunno:
Paul says all Israel shall be saved, future tense. And he looking back on his salvation along with many others at this point.