Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Shasta]

That is: according to 'our' laws of physics and current time/space theories. According to God: anything is possible. He is even capable of creating a 'limited' universe, from which those He creates to live in it cannot see the spirit-realm, stretch their reach beyond the current time and space they are in or even reach into the eternal realm, without His permission. He is eternal and that is above and beyond our capability to comprehend, much less define or put limits upon. He created this temporal realm and holds the keys to it, since He sits upon the 'circle of the earth' which I believe to be: time.

That was about rational thinking from a temporal perspective and particularly as it related to pre-creation. I admit timelessness is incomprehensible but that does not mean it is a false concept. God is limited however in that He cannot do something that is essentially irrational. For instance, He cannot violate the law of non-contradiction

 

[OMEGA]

eternal does not mean outside of time

 

[sky.]

eternal does not mean outside of time

It means in spite of time.

 

[Shasta]

eternal does not mean outside of time

Not in every case no. Eternal can mean an endless extension of time. I do not ever expect any human being to get outside the chain of cause and effect. For us eternal life is like a ray beginning at a point and proceeding forward without termination. <-----------------o When Paul said that "in the ages to come He would show us all that He, in his kindness has given to us (Eph 2:7) He was describing a never ending sequential process by which we will come to know Him. Our lessons come in stages, line upon line precept upon precept because our intelligence is limited.

Think of it like chapters in a book. We turn through it learning each part as we go but the Teacher knows all the chapters and all that is contained in the book from cover to cover because He Himself is the text. He need not be taught about Himself.

We learn the truth line upon line precept upon precept. Precepts describe parts of the whole which He is. The whole irrational idea of infinite regressive time which I have harped on applies to a series of actual events.

As an example take pi. Because it is a non-repeating non-terminating number it cannot be seen as a whole but must be calculated and memorized. Gods apprehension of time would have to be an intuitive grasp of the whole in order to resolve irrationality.

My point here is that God need not "learn"with the passage of time as Open Theism SEEMS to suggest. When He limited Himself in the kenosis and was incarnated as the man Jesus He experienced life as we do event by event but it was the Logos not the Father who came. Though the Trinity is of one essence He also is also three persons If God were a monolithic unity He could never have entered the time line in such a way to become a man. But what about the Father? Did He also as a persona of the Trinity enter time? Although Christ is "the fullness of the Godhead in human form, I cannot see that this is the case.

 

[Aimiel]

This refers to earth time/history, human history, post-creation measures of time. It does not preclude the reality of duration existing before material creation (necessary for God to think, act, feel in His triune relations). Creating our unique measures of time is not the same thing as sequence existing before this as a concept (Ps. 90:2; Rev. 1:4).

That may be your opinion but I believe what The Bible says. First day meaning first day 'ever' makes more sense to me.

 

[godrulz]

That may be your opinion but I believe what The Bible says. First day meaning first day 'ever' makes more sense to me.

It is the first day of material creation history. This does not mean there was no sequence/succession/duration in the triune relations before and after creation. You are not being reasonable to say the Bible says your view when I claim explicit biblical support from the same Bible. It says His years are without end, that there is time in the eternal state of heaven, that there is a before and after creation, that there are tensed expressions used of God (Rev. 1:4), etc.

You have a philosophical, traditional bias, not a solid argument based on evidence.

 

[Lighthouse]

That may be your opinion but I believe what The Bible says. First day meaning first day 'ever' makes more sense to me.

:doh:

Days are a measurement of time and before them time was not measured by them; that does not mean there was no time before them. To say so is a non sequitur.

Oh, I forgot, you're never wrong about God.

 

[godrulz]

Correct. Various subject or new measures of time should not be confused with time (duration) itself. Even if there was no sun or clocks, time (sequence) marches on. Just because a watch stops does not mean time does.

 

[Aimiel]

Just because a temporal being claims that time is supreme and cannot have ever been created or cannot imagine God being timeless and above sequence or beyond duration doesn't make it so.

 

[godrulz]

Just because a temporal being claims that time is supreme and cannot have ever been created or cannot imagine God being timeless and above sequence or beyond duration doesn't make it so.

You beg the question by assuming your traditional view must be right despite contrary biblical and philosophical evidence. We are not claiming that time is supreme, but that it is an aspect of any personal being's existence (by God's supreme choice). God is personal, so He must think, act, feel in succession, just as Scripture shows on every page. Time is philosophical, not a thing. Can you see, smell, taste, touch, etc. time?

God being timeless is simply incoherent if He is personal. He has not revealed Himself as such, so why accept Plato over Scripture?

Clearly God talks about a before and after creation. His triune relations do not happen in one simultaneity or creation is co-eternal with God, Jesus is still on the cross, the Second Coming has actually happened for God, He died in Christ before He was born, etc.?!

 

[sky.]

You beg the question by assuming your traditional view must be right despite contrary biblical and philosophical evidence.!

Biblical + philosophical evidence does not compute. Biblically speaking.

 

[sky.]

Just because a temporal being claims that time is supreme and cannot have ever been created or cannot imagine God being timeless and above sequence or beyond duration doesn't make it so.

That's what makes him "godrulz" small "g" he just doesn't know it yet.

 

[Aimiel]

We are not claiming that time is supreme, but that it is an aspect of any personal being's existence (by God's supreme choice).

Sorry, but just because you can only see God from a temporal perspective, you cannot see how He could be timeless without faith in God as being far above what you are.

His triune relations do not happen in one simultaneity or creation is co-eternal with God, Jesus is still on the cross, the Second Coming has actually happened for God, He died in Christ before He was born, etc.?!

God did speak of Christ being the Lamb, slain before the foundation of the world, did He not? He does know the end from the beginning, does He not? He told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was formed in his mother's womb, did He not. He does know every contingency, every molecule, every choice we will make... whether you accept His omniscience or not. He knows. The future is only future to those who are subject to time. Were God subject to time: time would be superior to God. It isn't. God created time. He doesn't have to be subject to His creation. He chose to be... but only for 33 years. And that: without ever stepping down off His Throne. He sent His Son. The 'likeness' of God, in The Flesh.

 

[godrulz]

Biblical + philosophical evidence does not compute. Biblically speaking.

You also have philosophical ideas that are godly since Scripture does not cover every possible fact in the universe.

 

[godrulz]

That's what makes him "godrulz" small "g" he just doesn't know it yet.

The inspired Greek NT always uses small 'g'/theos for YHWH, the true God.

In no way does my view limit God apart from His voluntary self-limitations (such as not to kill us all today). The problem is your shallow misunderstandings.

 

[godrulz]

Sorry, but just because you can only see God from a temporal perspective, you cannot see how He could be timeless without faith in God as being far above what you are.God did speak of Christ being the Lamb, slain before the foundation of the world, did He not? He does know the end from the beginning, does He not? He told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was formed in his mother's womb, did He not. He does know every contingency, every molecule, every choice we will make... whether you accept His omniscience or not. He knows. The future is only future to those who are subject to time. Were God subject to time: time would be superior to God. It isn't. God created time. He doesn't have to be subject to His creation. He chose to be... but only for 33 years. And that: without ever stepping down off His Throne. He sent His Son. The 'likeness' of God, in The Flesh.

The verses must be interpreted. The certainty of the cross is implemented at the Fall, while the potentiality of it was from all eternity. In no way is the cross actual before the incarnation (the verse does not say that without becoming incoherent).

 

[sky.]

You also have philosophical ideas that are godly since Scripture does not cover every possible fact in the universe.

Saying that "God is not eternal" which means timeless as far as God and Scripture is concerned is philosophical ...open theism. Who do you think you are kidding when you and your cohorts ask Bible believing Christians to explain God and His and ONLY His eternality?

You are asking Bible believing Christians to engage in philosophy to explain what is Spiritually gained. You are off course.

 

[godrulz]

Saying that "God is not eternal" which means timeless as far as God and Scripture is concerned is philosophical ...open theism. Who do you think you are kidding when you and your cohorts ask Bible believing Christians to explain God and His and ONLY His eternality?

You are asking Bible believing Christians to engage in philosophy to explain what is Spiritually gained. You're' off course.

GOD IS ETERNAL, but that does not mean Greek/Platonic timelessness. The Hebraic view is endless time, not timelessness.

In both views, the eternality of God is affirmed since God is uncreated triune Creator, Alpha and Omega, without beginning, without end. Whether His experience is durative (every page of Scripture) or timeless (whatever that means) is the A vs B theory of time philosophical debate with equally capable, godly Christians on both sides of the debate.

http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/eternity.html

Pick a bone with this simple introduction.

The technical proofs are vast in the literature, but beyond your expertise. Quit being an ostrich.

 

[sky.]

GOD IS ETERNAL, but that does not mean Greek/Platonic timelessness. The Hebraic view is endless time, not timelessness.

In both views, the eternality of God is affirmed since God is uncreated triune Creator, Alpha and Omega, without beginning, without end. Whether His experience is durative (every page of Scripture) or timeless (whatever that means) is the A vs B theory of time philosophical debate with equally capable, godly Christians on both sides of the debate.

http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/eternity.html

Pick a bone with this simple introduction.

The technical proofs are vast in the literature, but beyond your expertise. Quit being an ostrich.

You can talk talk talk all you want small g but God is eternal which according to the Bible means timeless BEFORE and AFTER time but to a Christian who knows God and WHO God knows... you small g are outside of the faith. You should just shut up before God makes you mute.

 

[godrulz]

You can talk talk talk all you want small g but God is eternal which according to the Bible means timeless BEFORE and AFTER time but to a Christian who knows God and WHO God knows... you small g are outside of the faith. You should just shut up before God makes you mute.

The Bible does not teach that God is timeless. This is sheer Platonic philosophy adopted by Augustine, C.S. Lewis, etc. Other great Christian thinkers have rightly disputed this from a biblical perspective.