Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[chatmaggot]

The reason that Jonah didn't want to preach the warning to Nineveh, (remember Jonah went directly against what God told him to do and went to Tarshish instead of Nineveh) is because Jonah knew that they would repent and be spared. The minor prophet Amos had prophesied that the Assyrians (the inhabitants of Nineveh) would come against Israel. Jonah did not want to be Gods agent to warn Nineveh. No God did not change His mind. He used Jonah to fulfill the prophecy of Amos.

Jonah didn't know that they would repent and be spared...but rather IF they would repent, then they would be spared because he knew that God is merciful. The prophecy against Nineveh was conditional.

Which results in my original concern:

If God has exhaustive foreknowledge and He says that something is going to happen knowing that it isn't going to happen, then does that make God a liar?

You answered earlier with:

No God did not lie.

I am having trouble understanding how someone who claims that God has exhaustive foreknowledge can also claim that God did not lie when He said that He was going to do something if He knew He was never going to do it.

I claim that God did not lie because, like most prophecies, the message to Nineveh was conditional. We learn this prophetic "rule" in Jeremiah 18.

However, for the one who believes in exhaustive foreknowledge, the problem is that they must explain how God did not lie when He said that He was going to do something if He knew He was never going to do it.

 

[Jacob]

However, for the one who believes in exhaustive foreknowledge, the problem is that they must explain how God did not lie when He said that He was going to do something if He knew He was never going to do it.

It sounds like you are putting your own observations back on God as His foreknowledge in an attempt to say He lied, when it is your observation that leads to your conclusion regarding His foreknowledge.

 

[godrulz]

Do you always use Yoda and Alice in wonderland to make your Biblical points?

Would you prefer Charlie Brown and Captain Kirk? I am dumbing it down since you are not familiar with technical, academic arguments like modal logic (relevant to the debate).

 

[godrulz]

My, my...Shifting sands.

God is portrayed as a Rock many times in Scripture.

Yes, Rock is a metaphor for God, but there is a big difference between a rock in your garden and the personal, living, infinite, triune, holy, loving, omnipotent, omniscient, eternal, etc. God.

Did you finish school? Seriously?:argue:

 

[godrulz]

Well, at least I don't believe that God or the Scriptures lied.

The Scriptures prove God's omniscience. I never have looked for the Scriptures to disprove God's all knowing.

Even classical theists do not deny conditional prophecy. You need to go back to grade school since you are impossible to reason with beyond a child's level.

 

[godrulz]

If a God is omniscient and omnipotent what reason would he have to change his mind?

Even a parent can change their minds if the child changes their attitude/behavior. If you do not clean your room, you will not have ice cream. You are not cleaning your room, so no treat. Later, the child cleans the room and asks for ice cream. The parent can then say yes or no or wait at that point.

A personal God can change His mind in response to changing contingencies. To not do so would compromise His character on issues relating to calls to repentance, etc.

The problem is a wrong view of the future and omniscience, not that change in some ways is incompatible with His attributes/character.

www.opentheism.info

I trust you are not rejecting a straw man of God. Forgive us for misrepresenting God at times, but there are more intellectually satisfying views that will better handle atheist objections.

http://www.amazon.com/Irrational-Atheist-Dissecting-Trinity-Hitchens/dp/1933771364 (Open Theism friendly author)

http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Skeptic-Wrestles-Questions-Christianity/dp/1434799808

 

[godrulz]

You can look through this thread Lon answered it and I agreed with him. I'm not going to waste my time trying to change a persons mind who starts off convinced that God lies.

God does NOT lie. In your view about Hezekiah, you must say that God lied or dance around things. It is your view that makes God a liar, not Open Theism.

Your wrong assumption/conclusion is that immutability (properly understood) means that God is a liar if He changes His mind (like Scripture clearly states dozens of times).

 

[sky.]

Jonah didn't know that they would repent and be spared...but rather IF they would repent, then they would be spared because he knew that God is merciful. The prophecy against Nineveh was conditional.

Which results in my original concern:

If God has exhaustive foreknowledge and He says that something is going to happen knowing that it isn't going to happen, then does that make God a liar?

You answered earlier with:



I am having trouble understanding how someone who claims that God has exhaustive foreknowledge can also claim that God did not lie when He said that He was going to do something if He knew He was never going to do it.

I claim that God did not lie because, like most prophecies, the message to Nineveh was conditional. We learn this prophetic "rule" in Jeremiah 18.

However, for the one who believes in exhaustive foreknowledge, the problem is that they must explain how God did not lie when He said that He was going to do something if He knew He was never going to do it.

Fine, you want to believe that God lied. Have it your way. Take god-rulz with you.

 

[godrulz]

Fine, you want to believe that God lied. Have it your way. Take god-rulz with you.

We do not believe God lied. You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting our view. How old are you again? Get some maturity and get back to us.

 

[Jacob]

We do not believe God lied. You are misunderstanding and misrepresenting our view. How old are you again? Get some maturity and get back to us.

If you follow godrulz, she was not the one who first said God lied.

 

[chatmaggot]

If you follow godrulz, she was not the one who first said God lied.

It sounds like you are putting your own observations back on God as His foreknowledge in an attempt to say He lied, when it is your observation that leads to your conclusion regarding His foreknowledge.

Fine, you want to believe that God lied. Have it your way. Take god-rulz with you.

Please stop purposefully misrepresenting what has been said.

I never said God lied. Sky accused me of stating that God lied.

Let me make it as simple as I can.

If a human being said that they were going to do something when they knew they were never going to do it...we would say that they lied.

Because sky believes that God has exhaustive foreknowledge I asked her if she thought God was lying when He said that He was going to do something but did not do it and knowing that He was not going to do it.

Because sky believes that God has exhaustive foreknowledge she believes that God said that He was going to do something when He knew that He was not going to do that which He said He was going to do.

Instead of answering my questions she has repeatedly claimed that I believe that God is a liar despite me saying the exact opposite here.

Again,

I asked If God knows that He is not going to do something when He says that He is going to do something did He lie when He said He was going to do it knowing full well that He was not going to do it?

I was accused of misinterpreting scripture. I posted here the verses in question and my interpretation of them. I asked Sky to provide her interpretation of them. Instead of doing so she said:

The reason that Jonah didn't want to preach the warning to Nineveh, (remember Jonah went directly against what God told him to do and went to Tarshish instead of Nineveh) is because Jonah knew that they would repent and be spared. The minor prophet Amos had prophesied that the Assyrians (the inhabitants of Nineveh) would come against Israel. Jonah did not want to be Gods agent to warn Nineveh. No God did not change His mind. He used Jonah to fulfill the prophecy of Amos.

I just don't get it.

If God knew that He was not going to do something when He said that He was going to something then how does one explain that?

 

[Jacob]

I never said God lied. Sky accused me of stating that God lied.

Did sky say God lied?

 

[sky.]

If you follow godrulz, she was not the one who first said God lied.

I never said God lied, period. I never would and I also would never form a question about God that proposed that He could have possibly lied.
These fools are using the example of Jona to try to prove that God doesn't know what He is doing. Open Theism is evil.

Isaiah 5:20

They think they are going to back me into a corner and agree with them.

 

[chatmaggot]

Did sky say God lied?

No. Sky continued to state that I believe that God lied.

I asked the question "Did God lie when He said that He was going to do something if He knew that He was never going to do it?"

From an Open Theist perspective God did not lie because as Jeremiah 18 teaches us...prophecy can be conditional.

I was asking someone who believes in Exhaustive Foreknowledge how they handle the Jonah example. I wanted to know if they believe that God lied? If not...then how do they reconcile their belief in exhaustive foreknowledge and the fact that God said he was going to do something and He did not do it.

 

[Jacob]

No. Sky continued to state that I believe that God lied.

Are you the one that brought up the idea that God lied? I don't think sky did.

I understand what you are saying now. But you have to consider the way things transpired. You had an accusation against her out of the blue.

 

[sky.]

I just don't get it.

If God knew that He was not going to do something when He said that He was going to something then how does one explain that?

What's wrong with God saving Nineveh and teaching Jonah and fulfilling prophecy? You use the Scriptures against God.

 

[Lighthouse]

God is all and is in all. He created time for us to experience.

Back this up with Scripture or shut up and go away.

Presumably you are saying that because time is "merely an idea" God therefore has no power over it or way to influence it; it is not something that God can be "outside of," He must simply accept it as a fact as we do.

Two questions:

1. Einstein has showed through his theory of General Relativity that different bodies can be shown to age differently under different circumstances. Given the technology necessary, we could propel someone to a speed near that of light for 20 years, after which they would barely have aged at all. Is time still an intangible idea?

2. What if I grant, for the sake of argument, that time is a sort of Platonic Form? What if time is a truth like "2+2=4" that is not tangible and is only an idea. Does it follow that God cannot change that truth? Can God not make 2+2=5? I certainly cannot comprehend how such a thing would be possible, but that does not mean God could not do it. :idunno:

1. Yes, because time is not responsible for the aging process in this event, yet it is, and always will be, impossible to test this hypothesis. And I surmise that is because it is bunk.
2. Truth is an attribute of God, and God cannot change His attributes.

Right. Open theism opens up God and Bible prophecy to the possibility of lies. If God isn't all knowing then neither is the Bible.

The settled view is the one that makes God out to be a liar.

 

[Jacob]

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

 

[chatmaggot]

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

I am not sure what you are trying to say by quoting this verse but I would be more than happy to talk through this verse (in its context) if you want. It might be a little lengthy but if you are willing to read it I will present my argument as to why I believe that this verse means exactly what it says and at the same time does not contradict Jeremiah 18 which indicates that God does change His mind.

 

[Aimiel]

God is all and is in all.

Back this up with Scripture or shut up and go away.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Obviously, God is in everything that He made, since it is very good and nothing is good except God.

He created time for us to experience.

Back this up with Scripture or shut up and go away.

Genesis 1:26-30
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

I guess it really wasn't so much that we were created to experience time, but time was created for us to experience our decisions. Were we eternal, as God and angels are: we'd be judged immediately for sinning. Since we are in time, we have space to repent. God's grace to us is time. Time to repent.