Proof from the Bible that God is In Time

[Nathon Detroit]

No, and there's still none. God is still waiting for forever to pass so that He can say "Let there by light." Until forever passes, He's got to keep waiting. So, no light. No creation.

Why does He need to wait? He decides to move, so He moves. :idunno: There is no dilemma there. No matter where God is on the "timeline", He decides to create and so He does.

However, here is a dilemma for you. If God created time (as you assert), prior to the point where God created time there was no time, i.e., no succession of events. How then could God ever create time? How could there be a time before time if without time there was no succession of events? You can't get from then to now if time doesn't exist.

Said in another way... you can refute the notion that God created time with a simple question.... how long did it take God to create time? :chuckle:

 

[Ps82]

Forget about creation. God experiences duration, whether he measures it or not. God exists, and therefore movement, communication, and time exists. You guys are too focused on your fish bowl existence.

That's a good point, and I agree ... and I believe that I mentioned in my last post that we do not know what God has done before he created us and time as we know it. All we can do is try to better understand from our time perspective how God relates to us.

As long as there is a creative God who creates things and processes ... there has to be time of some sort... I'll just refer to it as eternal time.

I had said:

We (humans) have no idea whether God has created other worlds and realms about which we may not even know. If he has then who knows how they might measure time? We can only try to understand how to count our time.

The creator is on the outside of time looking into places where he has set time measurement into motion. (He exists in a state called eternity and looks in on things from a position called omni-present.

I still believe this to be true.

 

[Ps82]

God was in motion before He set other stuff into motion. But, I think you are right that time was first measured before the first evening and morning. That means that God invented the measuring of time at the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth. The amount of time He existed prior to that was never measured.

Why do we think we have to lock TIME into a form of measurement?
If one considers eternity ... well, that's an example of TIME without measure.

 

[rocketman]

Well if you are asking... can a Calvinist be a Christian? Of course the answer is yes, I would never make the claim that somebody wasn't saved merely because they are a settled viewer.

I agree with this...

However, I firmly believe that Calvinism and settled theism beliefs are the number one reason (as far as bad theology is concerned) that turn people away from God. I can't tell you how many atheists, agnostics, and "former believers" I meet that tell me that they just couldn't buy the notion that God predestines people to go to hell or predestines vile wicked behavior, or that God knew from an eternity past who they were supposed to marry, etc. That's why this issue is so important. Anything that wrongly depicts God's character and attributes runs the danger of turning people away, and settled theism is the number one offender.

I also agree with this statement. I don't understand the open view in it's entirety but, I too believe the notion of predestination as presented by Calvin is a bogus view of God, His nature, and His plan that ALL are welcome in the BOC, to believe otherwise contradicts the Bible itself. I could add to what you have said here but, I'm glad that we are on the same page.

Oh, and I also should add... settled theism is also a real killer for many Christian's walk with God. We know so many neat Christian folks who are just flat-out confused with God. They are constantly wondering why did God have me do this or that. What does God want me to do next??? They feel like they are in some cosmic gauntlet that God has devised for them. It truly gets in the way of their relationship with God.

I was raised in a protestant/calvinist denomination, sadly I never came into a true relationship and understanding of Jesus and His sacrifice until I left. I too believe the calvinistic view does more to distance man from God than to draw him into the relationship God desires from us, after all He loves us and desires us to be close to him not cold and distant. How can we ever know what God wants without that closeness.

P.S. I went to Del Frisco's last night. It was a blast! They had an amazing Frank Sinatra impersonator. I had a Drew Estate Undercrown, it was really good.

Awesome, I'm jealous. We'll have that dinner yet...:thumb:


Thank you for helping me understand the open view a little better. I'll keep reading

 

[godrulz]

Has open theism lead you to believe that God is not all knowing, and that you don't believe in His Omniscience?

Open Theism affirms that God is all-knowing and omniscient. He is ignorant of nothing, but the nature of reality is that some things in a non-deterministic universe are inherently unknowable, even by an omniscient God. He knows reality as it is, so future possibilities are anticipatory until they become certain in the present and memory in the fixed past.

We differ on the nature of creation/future, not on whether He is omniscient (He is in both views).

You are displaying technical ignorance of the complexities of this biblical, philosophical debate.

 

[Lon]

You do not have to have a beginning for duration to exist.

Ummmm.....you missed the whole ball here.
Yes, you do.

 

[Lon]

Uh... I wasn't even talking to you. :idunno:

Also I estimate I'm fairly ignored (look, I'm sandwiched inbetween Bob's time online, not a mention from either of you) on this important topic and as far back as 4 years. "Why" isn't clear to me for I at least am a titan of the topic in my own mind.
Other than this specific acknowledgement (which is a bit deflating I hope you can empathize) I've recieved little from you in interaction/acknowledgement. Shoot, Bob side-stepped me conveniently(?) like I was a landmine on many sides of many other posters he address. It was like I was 'invisible' or had the plague.

Of course I'm walking away with either: 1) ...too brilliant to even touch...
or 2)...too sad to comment... There may be an option 3 in there but I'm perplexed at the unresponsiveness.

 

[Lon]

Why does He need to wait? He decides to move, so He moves. :idunno: There is no dilemma there. No matter where God is on the "timeline", He decides to create and so He does.

Okay, this is the same head-shake you gave me, correct?
Answer this: How long is God's past? Measure it and tell me.
Can you do it?
If yes, what does that mean about God?
If no, what does that mean about God?

However, here is a dilemma for you. If God created time (as you assert), prior to the point where God created time there was no time, i.e., no succession of events. How then could God ever create time? How could there be a time before time if without time there was no succession of events? You can't get from then to now if time doesn't exist.

As above, where I directly point out that you are thinking of God's existence exactly like you are thinking of a believer's existence (a time ray rather than a time line), I reiterate the point that you are thinking unidirectionally where for God it is at the very least bidurational/directional ("No" above means that His experience of time exceeds our own in at least one other direction). I make this cogent point with Bob as well in my ignored link above. In order for God to create, I agree, He acts, but what you are failing to see is that the direction from that point is bidurational because He still has a past that is still going forever (an active verb for something 'we' consider over and done). It is impossible to think of God's eternal nonbeginning in such a way. The language, measurement, concept of that kind of time is beyond our own.

Said in another way... you can refute the notion that God created time with a simple question.... how long did it take God to create time? :chuckle:

Which time? See, you are stuck in only one progression and essentially denying God has no beginning with such a concept. To say He has no beginning and then to say He is only unidirectional are both mutually exclusive statements and concepts. I'll put it to you again: Pit me against any mathematician you like, I am up confident in this statement. You are saying something that is mutually exclusive (illogical). They both cannot be true. Either God is unidirection, and thus has a beginning, or He has no beginning and thus is bi-directional/durational (at the very least).

Either you have God in a unidirectional progression (a ray that has a beginning) or you have Him eternal (a bidurational, bidirectional consideration-a line with no beginning and no end). Part of God's existence is described in the ray, no problem there. The problem is that He must, necessarily, not just be experiencing a ray of time, but at least a line of time (it is actually much more complicated but I'm paring it down for this one point).

 

[godrulz]

Bottom line. Open Theism denies God's all knowing, His Omniscience.

http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-the...god-doesn’t-know-the-future-in-the-open-view/

Just as denying the Calvinistic wrong version of sovereignty is not denying God/sovereignty, so denying the wrong view of classical theology is not denying a biblical view of omniscience.

You really don't understand this debate at all.

 

[godrulz]

Saying God only knows things that ARE knowable in essence is saying that God is bound in some way or restricted from being able to be all knowing.

This is a voluntary self-limitation by God. If God wanted your kind of omniscience, He would have to create a deterministic universe at the expense of love, relationship, freedom. Since He created one with free moral agents, the reality is that exhaustive definite foreknowledge is incompatible with libertarian free will.

This is simple and intuitive, but can also be explained with very technical proofs using modal logic, etc. Until you grasp these things, it is premature to be as simplistic and dogmatic as you are.

 

[godrulz]

ETERNAL means TIMELESS. God is Eternal. That is Christian that is what I believe. Also God is ALL KNOWING because He existed in eternity past.

This is begging the question/circular reasoning. The Hebraic view of eternity is endless time, not Grecian, Platonic, philosophical, unbiblical timelessness, divine eternal now simultaneity, etc., whatever that would mean to a personal God who reveals Himself experiencing duration/succession/sequence (time) on every page of Scripture and before creation.

Rev. 1:4 tensed expressions are used of God. God has a past, present, future, even as we do.

Eternity does convey no beginning and end (in both views), but it does not have to mean no duration (endless duration is eternal).

 

[godrulz]

I'll never know why you claim to be a Christian if you don't understand that God is eternal and nothing transcends that fact.

We fully agree that God is eternal, but we don't agree with your misunderstanding of eternal/eternity. Do some Hebrew/Greek word studies, look at proof texts (the few timeless texts are readily answered). Look at the origin of timeless/eternal now theories.

i.e. move from kindergarten to University before being dogmatic...:juggle:

 

[chrysostom]

Chrysostom, the opening post explains what that means, and shows that time doesn't only apply to us but also to God, in that the eternal persons of the Trinity were different in eternity past than they are now, and as one example, God the Son was not eternally "the Son of Man."

It'd be so neat for you to respond to particulars in the Opening Post.

For example, were you surprised that all those "timelessness" phrases are from pagan Greek philosophy whereas all the phrases showing extended, unending time were from the Bible?

-Bob Enyart
KGOV.com

I do understand time
and
I do understand that there are many different interpretations of the bible
but
I do not understand God
or
how anyone can say He is in time

 

[sky.]

Open Theism affirms that God is all-knowing and omniscient. He is ignorant of nothing, but the nature of reality is that some things in a non-deterministic universe are inherently unknowable, even by an omniscient God. He knows reality as it is, so future possibilities are anticipatory until they become certain in the present and memory in the fixed past.

We differ on the nature of creation/future, not on whether He is omniscient (He is in both views).

You are displaying technical ignorance of the complexities of this biblical, philosophical debate.

Blah, blah, blah

http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-the...god-doesn’t-know-the-future-in-the-open-view/

Just as denying the Calvinistic wrong version of sovereignty is not denying God/sovereignty, so denying the wrong view of classical theology is not denying a biblical view of omniscience.

You really don't understand this debate at all.

blah, blah

This is a voluntary self-limitation by God. If God wanted your kind of omniscience, He would have to create a deterministic universe at the expense of love, relationship, freedom. Since He created one with free moral agents, the reality is that exhaustive definite foreknowledge is incompatible with libertarian free will.

This is simple and intuitive, but can also be explained with very technical proofs using modal logic, etc. Until you grasp these things, it is premature to be as simplistic and dogmatic as you are.

blah, blah, blah

This is begging the question/circular reasoning. The Hebraic view of eternity is endless time, not Grecian, Platonic, philosophical, unbiblical timelessness, divine eternal now simultaneity, etc., whatever that would mean to a personal God who reveals Himself experiencing duration/succession/sequence (time) on every page of Scripture and before creation.

Rev. 1:4 tensed expressions are used of God. God has a past, present, future, even as we do.

Eternity does convey no beginning and end (in both views), but it does not have to mean no duration (endless duration is eternal).

blah, blah

We fully agree that God is eternal, but we don't agree with your misunderstanding of eternal/eternity. Do some Hebrew/Greek word studies, look at proof texts (the few timeless texts are readily answered). Look at the origin of timeless/eternal now theories.

i.e. move from kindergarten to University before being dogmatic...:juggle:

Blah, blah


Get back to me when you figure out what makes God, God.

 

[sky.]

Also I estimate I'm fairly ignored (look, I'm sandwiched inbetween Bob's time online, not a mention from either of you) on this important topic and as far back as 4 years. "Why" isn't clear to me for I at least am a titan of the topic in my own mind.
Other than this specific acknowledgement (which is a bit deflating I hope you can empathize) I've recieved little from you in interaction/acknowledgement. Shoot, Bob side-stepped me conveniently(?) like I was a landmine on many sides of many other posters he address. It was like I was 'invisible' or had the plague.

Of course I'm walking away with either: 1) ...too brilliant to even touch...
or 2)...too sad to comment... There may be an option 3 in there but I'm perplexed at the unresponsiveness.

They can't respond unless they drop their false view of God.

 

[ghost]

Ummmm.....you missed the whole ball here.
Yes, you do.

Psalm 9:7
But the LORD shall endure for ever

 

[rainee]

rainee, some great points. Thanks for the kindness in your comments. I especially agreed with your comment that God could "end it all" as a way of stopping the wicked from further harming others on earth. Great point. And regarding non-biblical terms, the OP doesn't argue that we shouldn't use non-biblical terms (like Trinity for example), but rather, that Christians are led to believe that many non-biblical terms and the timeless concept are scriptural, when in fact they are pagan, and that where the Bible addresses the exact topic, it does so in many, many places with terms that indicate the exact opposite of the doctrine taught by "settled view" theologians.

Thanks rainee! -Bob Enyart

Greetings Pastor Enyart
I hope you did see my apology to you, and thank you for the above kind post.

When I first came here to TOL, Lighthouse posted a thread about a Calvinist pastor who had his marriage fail due to unfaithfulness and he himself stepped down from the pulpit to do some alone time with his soul and with his Lord.

I responded to the news Lighthouse had posted by saying how can it be said we are a "new creation"? Since it is often so obvious there is much about a Christian that is not new, right?

But this thread is about that. This thread is about what God did to make us a new creation.

Though you may be looking for support for an "open view" what you are kicking up is what God did - and whatever God did - it was most probably about us (hate to sound so egotistical for all of us, lol.)
It is serendipity.

Now, since I tried to give you something good just now will you help me? Knight and Lighthouse and Nick can be really mean to people who are in essence your foundation if you grew up in a Western Civilization. Reformers gave you so much, you understand?
You should love them. And Ghost, well Ghost needs to calm down
though perhaps he needs medication more than to be tattled on.

Oh also, there is a guy named Dave and he has at the bottom that he can explain all the mysteries of God. I think that is not true.
He also is one of yours?

I asked a question earlier though it seemed to get forgotten in the heat of the discussion. Could Bob, Knight, ghost or any of you with the open view tell me if this view has implications as it relates to our salvation? and if so what are they? I am just trying to understand the Open view vs. Settled view and it's implications in either case.

Rocketman, I do not know but they are all flirting with the answer.
Jesus became what He is so we could be what we will be and what Paul has said we already are - though that is quite debatable to me.

As far as I know it took God not to be One only but to be The Father, The Son And The Holy Spirit to work out what it takes to make us.

Lon and Nang and Sky and some others are trying to uphold God as not changing, Open Theists say God changed therefore He is a prisoner of the fifth dimension. What?

 

[Traditio]

I changed the word from an impossible mathematical construct (infinite) to the truth. Infinite is as real as i.

Do you assert that God came into being at any moment? For example, suppose that A is some point in time. I will ask you: Did God exist at A? You say "yes." Great. B is a point prior to A. Did God exist at B? "He did," you say? C is a moment before B. Did God exist then? D is a moment before C. Did God exist...?

You get the idea. I can keep asking you again and again and you'll always be forced to say "yes."

Now, suppose that I had a number line and this number line went on to infinity into the past. I ask you: "Is there any point in which God did not exist?" You must say "no."

When you say "immeasurable," you make it out as though the time line somehow is finite for God. Great. Then let's take this "immeasurable" time line that you propose. Before this "immeasureable" time, did God exist? You say "yes"? Great! And so I ask you again and again ad infinitum, and you'll always tell me "yes."

So I invert the question: "Is it possible even for God to collect the entirety of time together and say: 'Before this, I did not exist?'" No. Therefore even God cannot collect the entirety of time together. Time must be just as infinite as God is, but God is absolutely infinite (even this is an inadequate predication). Therefore, so is time.

Therefore, just as we cannot place limits on God, so too can we not place limits on the time that preceded the creation of the world.

Therefore not even God can traverse it.

Therefore, creation cannot exist.

God's existence is unmeasurable by anything but God.

Noetically and volitionally. God's existence is "measured" noetically and volitionally. Because God is infinite, His will and power must likewise be infinite in order to be adequate to their object (Himself). But you can't measure an infinite quantity. That's impossible even for God. If I ask God what the greatest possible number is, even God will have to tell me that there is none. Granted, God knows all possible numbers, but He does this insofar as the possible numbers are infinite and uncountable.

 

[Traditio]

Why does one time have to be better than the other for Him to choose one? And why can't one time be better than the other?

Let's get rid of the notion of an infinite time for the sake of this matter, since the notion of infinite time itself binds the Open Theist in irresolvable contradictions. For this problem, it is sufficient that there be even two moments of time for God.

Suppose that God experiences precisely two moments: A and B.

Is it possible for God to create the world at moment A? Yes.
Is it possible for God the create the world at moment B? Yes.

Let us, of course, assume that God does not create the world at moment A, but moment B. Why would God wait? Does He have to wait until the idea comes to Him? Then at moment A, God is ignorant.

Must He gather together the materials and devise a plan? Then at moment A, God is powerless.

Does God simply not feel like doing anything at moment A? Then God is a sluggard.

You see? There's simply no good reason why God should wait even one moment, much less a vast quantity of moments, much less an infinity of moments.

I could appeal to Leibniz's Law of Sufficient Reason here, but I don't think I have to.

 

[Ps82]

Hello Knight and Bob,
Knight you quoted Bob's article in the opening post, and I would like to comment on some of his views.

Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:

In the "eternal state" before the foundation of the world God the Son was not also the SON OF MAN; then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man" and so the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5).
Many theologians reject this proof that God is in time. Why? They claim that their historical-grammatical hermeneutic, that is, their primary method of interpretation, proves that God is not in time. So let's look at the relationship of God and time.

I agree with Bob's statement and not with the run around from theologians, who try to make reading scripture too difficult... for what ever reasons they have.

Bob wrote:

When Reading in "the Greek" about God and Time, We See that God is:

- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was nor will be but is, and
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases are in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by Christians in various systematic theology textbooks.

I believe that those terms can be used to discuss God ... but yet it is God who establishes TIME and then established A WAY for himself to enter time.

Bod shared:

... Even though typically translated by those who claim that God is outside of time, yet still, the Bible's many descriptions present God as existing in a never-ending sequence of time.

If you say this, then you insinuate that God had a starting point and then started on a journey of his own of never-ending sequences.

Does time always require a standard of measurement? Why couldn't time just be a state - like eternity?

So what that God performed things within eternity. The measurement of time is only important when one sets a beginning and an end to something... then measuring from point A to point B becomes relevant?

Bob listed scripture comments about God and Time and stated:

Everlasting - From of old - Before ever He had formed the earth - The Ancient of Days - Before the world was - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - He continues forever - Immortal - Remains forever - Forever and ever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - God who is - Alive forevermore - Who was - Who is to come - Always lives - Forever - In the age to come - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.

Of course ALL THESE are verbatim quotes from Scripture and NOT ONE MEANS TIMELESSNESS.

I agree with your last comment. People equate timelessness with eternity ... when really timelessness just means TIME without a standard unit of measurement.

Bod shared:

The human philosophy of the pagan Greeks (which Augustine admited that he adapted to Christian theology), assumes that God exists outside of time, something the language of Scripture could easily present if that were God's intention.

When I say that God exists outside of time ... I mean that he is not tied down to any standards of measurement or an specific standard of measurement unless he so chooses. I do believe that God is eternal and infinite...and a most basic description of Him would be: The eternal, omni-present, infinite invisible spiritual God, who is/has life, power, and creative intellect.

Bob contemplated:

The Above Proof By Proof Texts: Let's demonstrate the above proof again this time using only Bible excerpts. Those who claim that God is outside of time also frequently use the unbiblical phrase, "the eternal state." Actually, every moment is in the eternal state, including those moments before creation, all those since, and including those that will follow the New Creation. The following purely scriptural phrases show that in the "eternal state," WHO GOD WAS in eternity past differs from WHO GOD IS now and in eternity future.

I think that "the state" and "essence" of God's spiritual nature never changes. If that could change then everything created within him would be in peril ... but when he wishes he can enter into "processes He set into motion", which are taking place inside of Him.

With his ability to do this God can temporarily enter a finite time frame. In Genesis 1:14 KJV we read where He set the framework for TIME measurement within our realm when he said: Let there be lights... to divide day from night; and let them be for signs, seasons, days, and years. Now, outside of this specific earthly time framework ... God had already existed. Who knows what else God may have done before our world ... or of the many other unimaginable things he may have created and of some other time measurements he might have established within Him?
I conclude this: God is eternal ... but within Him there may be many divinely established TIME standards.

Due to my lack of time I will address Bob's views about how God entered time in the form of His own Son. My favorite topic BTW.