predestination

[beloved57]

pierac

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Just what does this mean?

Speaking of all the elect vessels of mercy from amongest the jews and gentiles. For all are not vessels of mercy, some are vessels of wrath,

 

[Derf]

I still very much believe we had no freewill UNTIL the serpent led Genesis 3:1-5 I see 'free' will as the result, not the gift.



This is the Arminian position, not the Open or Calvinist one (preliminary, just pointing out the important disagreement differences at this point). Calvinists believe God knows because Colossians 1:17 and John 15:5 are taken literally. The Open Theist believes, like you, that freewill is a gift and that God chose to limit the scope of His knowledge and doesn't know, just 'waits and sees who will be saved" and His efforts may be thwarted by resistance of man.

I think at least some Open Theists believe that God's knowledge rests on facts, and not suppositions, and that if something about the future is a fact, then it is so not because it has already happened, but because there's no way it ISN'T going to happen. And if something (everything?) about you or me was a fact before we were involved, like "from the foundation of the world", then it could only be a fact of that kind because someone who has the power to make it happen, had already decided to make it happen.

This is the basis for Calvinistic predestination, that God has decided something will happen in the future, and He will make sure it happens--not that He happens to see it in a crystal ball (the basis for Arminian predestination, if Arminians can forgive me the crystal ball perjorative).

The question arises, then, whether, from the foundation of the world, God had already decided to make you and me happen, and if He had, then He must also have decided to make our parents happen, and all of our forebears, as well as make them get together sexually in the way that they did (including some cases of rape, no doubt, and possibly incest). So, for any of us to be predestined to be saved, in the Calvinistic model, requires that God also predestine rape and incest, at least in some cases, not to mention any number of other transgressions people commit against each other that have a part in forming their personalities and circumstances so that you and I come to be where we are today.

And remember, if God doesn't look into a crystal ball, yet predestines us to be saved, personally, before we exist, it is His power that produces us through the means mentioned above--it can't be by our own intentions that He miraculously uses for His glory--it must be HIS own intentions that those means come to pass.

If God, then, intends for people to act in such ways (rape and incest being the examples) that are not coming from their own intentions, then God INTENDS sin. It must have been His pleasure. Yet if God says any sin that He intended is an abomination (and there must be quite a few), His is a house divided whose kingdom cannot stand, at least according to His Son, who came to earth with the sole purpose to glorify His Father.

(The crystal ball or like powers are no help, as God then is subject to a greater power of a future that exists that He cannot control.)

----------------------------------------

Maybe we make more of predestination than is necessary. In fact, the whole human race was predestined to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." These were words that both He intended and pleased Him.

If these commands were given to the whole human race (and they were, since they were given to us while we were still in the loins of Adam), and through Christ we will fulfill those words (does anyone deny it?), then if some don't fulfill and others do, are any less predestined to do them than others?

 

[Lon]

I think at least some Open Theists believe that God's knowledge rests on facts, and not suppositions, and that if something about the future is a fact, then it is so not because it has already happened, but because there's no way it ISN'T going to happen. And if something (everything?) about you or me was a fact before we were involved, like "from the foundation of the world", then it could only be a fact of that kind because someone who has the power to make it happen, had already decided to make it happen.

This is the basis for Calvinistic predestination, that God has decided something will happen in the future, and He will make sure it happens--not that He happens to see it in a crystal ball (the basis for Arminian predestination, if Arminians can forgive me the crystal ball perjorative).

The question arises, then, whether, from the foundation of the world, God had already decided to make you and me happen, and if He had, then He must also have decided to make our parents happen, and all of our forebears, as well as make them get together sexually in the way that they did (including some cases of rape, no doubt, and possibly incest). So, for any of us to be predestined to be saved, in the Calvinistic model, requires that God also predestine rape and incest, at least in some cases, not to mention any number of other transgressions people commit against each other that have a part in forming their personalities and circumstances so that you and I come to be where we are today.

And remember, if God doesn't look into a crystal ball, yet predestines us to be saved, personally, before we exist, it is His power that produces us through the means mentioned above--it can't be by our own intentions that He miraculously uses for His glory--it must be HIS own intentions that those means come to pass.

If God, then, intends for people to act in such ways (rape and incest being the examples) that are not coming from their own intentions, then God INTENDS sin. It must have been His pleasure. Yet if God says any sin that He intended is an abomination (and there must be quite a few), His is a house divided whose kingdom cannot stand, at least according to His Son, who came to earth with the sole purpose to glorify His Father.

(The crystal ball or like powers are no help, as God then is subject to a greater power of a future that exists that He cannot control.)

----------------------------------------

Maybe we make more of predestination than is necessary. In fact, the whole human race was predestined to "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." These were words that both He intended and pleased Him.

If these commands were given to the whole human race (and they were, since they were given to us while we were still in the loins of Adam), and through Christ we will fulfill those words (does anyone deny it?), then if some don't fulfill and others do, are any less predestined to do them than others?

YET, Open Theism does not escape this logical 'end', not at all. God SEES it happening (some Open Theists don't believe He does. They believe God doesn't see you in the bathroom, for instance. I'm sure you are not that kind of Open Theist).

Rebuttal? Whatever the consequences: Hebrews 4:13

It is BETTER to wrestle with problematics, imho, than to second-guess or deny the character of God. We just cannot build a theology that actually does damage to the revelation He gives us of His character and nature. I truly believe it leads to the danger of rationalizing and humanizing (casting an idol in our own image) God.

 

[Derf]

YET, Open Theism does not escape this logical 'end', not at all. God SEES it happening (some Open Theists don't believe He does. They believe God doesn't see you in the bathroom, for instance. I'm sure you are not that kind of Open Theist).

Rebuttal? Whatever the consequences: Hebrews 4:13

Of course He can see us in the bathroom. And He allows sin to continue to a point, else He would have to destroy us all right now. That's not the same, in my mind, as WANTING it to happen, PLANNING it to happen, and MAKING SURE it happens. (I do see a probable exception to this rule, and maybe there are others, but I have a hard time seeing the planning of all sinful acts from before the foundation of the world as a global exception to this rule.)

It is BETTER to wrestle with problematics, imho, than to second-guess or deny the character of God. We just cannot build a theology that actually does damage to the revelation He gives us of His character and nature. I truly believe it leads to the danger of rationalizing and humanizing (casting an idol in our own image) God.

We should often reassess ("second-guess"?) our interpretation of His revelation, to make sure we aren't casting an idol in our own image.

If both viewpoints have the same danger, then it's hardly an argument against either one, unless there's some option out there that does not carry with it the danger of casting that idol in our own image. Do you know of one that wouldn't be suffering from the high horse fallacy (made that name up myself)?

So, if a possibility of a wrong interpretation of God's revelation (you can't deny there is that possibility, since it is so often presented around here) exists, then it IS wrestling with problematics when we discuss the character of God. I'm just pointing out how the character of God can be maligned by our theologies (well, yours and some others--I'll leave it to you to point out how it can by mine, since that would be my blind spot). And if God's character can be maligned by our theologies, We NEED that reassessment/second-guessing.

 

[Derf]

It is vital that we recognize that God's foreknowledge precedes predestination.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


God gave humans free will, ie, the freedom and ability to choose what we think and what we do, or at attempt to think and do. Man fails at his plans many a time because his thoughts are not based on reality.

God looking ahead from before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, (that is from our point of view) sees that you are going to believe, chooses you because you would eventually choose to believe. God foreknowing this plans ahead for your life much like a person would prepare for the arrival of a guest that the host knows is coming.

The Greek word for "predestination" means to mark out beforehand. God foresaw who would choose to believe and marked them out beforehand.

I guess the question is, what about those did He foreknow? Was it their existence? Their belief? Their nationality? Their repentance?

And is it a specific knowledge of specific people, or a general knowledge of a group of people?

Or was it even just a knowledge that there would be some people that fit that category, and those, knowing some would exist, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

"Glorified" is in past tense (just like the rest of the verbs). Does that mean He glorified people before they existed, meaning He prepared beforehand for them to be glorified, or is it talking about people that have already passed away?

Including "glorified" seems to suggest this passage is not talking about the recipients of Paul's letter to the Romans, except as a promise of things to come for them, but then it is an example passage, not a descriptive passage. Kind of like the passages where Paul talked about Abraham's faith or Sarah and Hagar.

 

[Lon]

Of course He can see us in the bathroom. And He allows sin to continue to a point, else He would have to destroy us all right now. That's not the same, in my mind, as WANTING it to happen

:nono: You may have been around some double-preds. God doesn't want nor desire evil. What He has determined, predetermined, is to work it out ala Romans 8:28

PLANNING it to happen

Jermiah 29:11 He owns the cattle on a thousand hills because Colossians 1:16-20 says 'by Him and for Him." Does it mean He wants their demise? :nono: Open Theism does not at all distance. It TRIES to, by spreading out the time line, but it is impossible that it can get away from the same conclusion as any other lover theologian of God: Bad things happen and it is well within the Power of God to stop. RATHER 'why' He does/doesn't is the real discussion. "When" doesn't do anything so, imho, leaves Open Theism not really needing to happen once one really wrestles with the insecurity of his/her own position. The Calvinist is the guy/gal who logically worked it out to the end and simply declares "Yep, evil happens BUT God is Holy." Further? The Lord Jesus Christ, in conveying that God isn't willing that any should perish, is working out this scenario to the end that 'no wheat' (believer) is harmed. He loves the world, wants none to perish but is particularly loving and careful that no Christian is lost/damaged. He knows what He is doing and Redemption is His job. I rest alone in the goodness of God and VERY importantly "regardless if all I can figure out is that God allows attrocity." Just because I'm perplexed is not, for me, an issue. Matthew 5:46 I think one that can love God in light of what is troublesome to them, at times, is the real lover. We all need not make apology for God, but love and trust Him. Hebrews 11:6

and MAKING SURE it happens. (I do see a probable exception to this rule, and maybe there are others, but I have a hard time seeing the planning of all sinful acts from before the foundation of the world as a global exception to this rule.)

Planning isn't the issue, if the trade off is to see God as losing control and chaos running amok, there is no comfort in that either. I think I understand the reason 'why' there are Open Theists, but I think they truly haven't encircled yet, the full implications of such NOR have they actually, logically distanced. Making God without knowledge isn't a comfort. Anything can happen in uncontrolled chaos. God is a God of consistent unchanging character and will wipe away all chaos. I know God will fix this, has already provided the work, and that He is unwilling that any of His own be harmed, nor is He desirous that any stumble over Christ as they will surely do. He causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust specifically because any intervention, by His own analogy, would have those who come to Him harmed. "Then why doesn't He do something, or isn't He able to remove the tares from the good wheat?" Answer: Yes, He is doing exactly that.

We should often reassess ("second-guess"?) our interpretation of His revelation, to make sure we aren't casting an idol in our own image.

If both viewpoints have the same danger, then it's hardly an argument against either one, unless there's some option out there that does not carry with it the danger of casting that idol in our own image. Do you know of one that wouldn't be suffering from the high horse fallacy (made that name up myself)?

I'd rather be seen as seeing God sovereign than inept, however. This, crudely, is the difference between these two respective theologies: One 'looks' like a God who has no control and has left our salvation in our own hands (not relational really at that point), and the other 'seems' to have God as desirous of evil and planning it. Either we have "the God who risks" because specifically, life with us is a roll of the dice, or we have God knowing exactly what He is doing, regardless of what it 'looks like' at any given time.

So, if a possibility of a wrong interpretation of God's revelation (you can't deny there is that possibility, since it is so often presented around here) exists, then it IS wrestling with problematics when we discuss the character of God. I'm just pointing out how the character of God can be maligned by our theologies (well, yours and some others--I'll leave it to you to point out how it can by mine, since that would be my blind spot). And if God's character can be maligned by our theologies, We NEED that reassessment/second-guessing.

We do. I've pointed out the difference and it is because of the problematics, that we have to understand and then either balance, abandon, or relegate. For me, I'd still rather think that God knows what He is doing rather than think in some misguided-ineffectual love, that He doesn't have much of an idea. In the end, I have to be careful not to read 'my comfort' into how I will view Him. He says often He is in control so I know it is true. By faith then, when such doesn't look quite right, I rather question my understanding rather than asserting some truth about God that I believe scriptures nor His character allows.

Sanders, one who is one of the starters of Open Theism, rightly assesses that in Open Theism, God must be seen as 'making mistakes' throughout His working with man. I don't believe any Open Theist can escape that logical conclusion. Sanders recognized it as true and embraced it as part of his Open Theism and insisted that if one were an Open Theist, he/she would have to come to the same logical conclusion. I've never seen a logical way out of it, it is a major proponent of Open Theism. -Lon

 

[oatmeal]

I still very much believe we had no freewill UNTIL the serpent led Genesis 3:1-5 I see 'free' will as the result, not the gift.



This is the Arminian position, not the Open or Calvinist one (preliminary, just pointing out the important disagreement differences at this point). Calvinists believe God knows because Colossians 1:17 and John 15:5 are taken literally. The Open Theist believes, like you, that freewill is a gift and that God chose to limit the scope of His knowledge and doesn't know, just 'waits and sees who will be saved" and His efforts may be thwarted by resistance of man.

Reiterating what I said. Gods foreknowledge precedes predestination.

Because God already knows all including knowing all who will choose to believe he marks us out beforehand. He thus prepares in advance for us. God already knows before we ask what we need and has already prepared to meet that need.

 

[Lon]

Reiterating what I said. Gods foreknowledge precedes predestination.

Isaiah 46:10 1 Kings 13:2 Romans 9:19-23 Foreknowledge/predestination order is, for me, peering under the veil. It'd be presumptuous for me, if I spoke for God here. While many want to make 'something' seem just by their theology systematics, I want to be careful that I'm not putting my foot in my mouth. What scriptures do you use for this?

Because God already knows all including knowing all who will choose to believe he marks us out beforehand. He thus prepares in advance for us. God already knows before we ask what we need and has already prepared to meet that need.

It has a remedial tenor between us.You are perhaps familiar with Supralapsarian/Infralapsarian? This is ever the discussed positions on this in the Calvinist camp. I'm a infralapsarian. Lon

 

[Nang]

Reiterating what I said. Gods foreknowledge precedes predestination.

God is not subject to such linear time values nor constraints.

His foreknowledge and His predeterminations are attributes that eternally exist in Him outside of time, which is not the same as (befores and afters) that we creatures experience in our temporaral lifetimes.

 

[way 2 go]

I think if someone jumped in and saved me from drowning, like a parent or a lifeguard is somewhat 'predestined' (reason they are there). To me, great comfort while swimming.
Carried over, it brings comfort for life as well. Oddly, there are people that don't like lifeguards or their parents (most of them fairly decent and definitely would jump in to save them).

in that scenario you are predestined to drown

Context is good for the discussion: Jesus jumped in, not holding onto Godliness, but Philippians 2....etc. Some people take no comfort. For we who love the Lord Jesus Christ and those who will, a great comfort and not creepy at all. I think it is at the very least, something one can appreciate, whether they hold to the position or not. As long as we find the beauty of another's systematic theology, much good is served, even in the disagreement. In our Dear Lord and Savior, -Lon

are good & bad things predestined or is our end result predestined, heaven.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Lon]

in that scenario you are predestined to drown

Yes. We are born steeped in a sinful world. By analogy, steeped in water at birth. Agreed.

are good & bad things predestined or is our end result predestined, heaven.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

I believe both of these are double-pred/supralapsarian. I'm infralapsarian and single-pred. First them:

Yup, he's wrong...

Jn 3:18 tells us believers who are sinful are not condemned (ever or already) though non-believers are condemned for their sin of unbelief, unfaith, already...

Impossible, since the elect are sinners God so Loved and Christ died for, and Christ is their propitiation, meaning He satisfied for them Gods law and Justice and reconciled them to God by His death Rom 5:10

A bit more from John Piper if you are interested, I think he and his staff are infralapsarian/single-pred as well. Here is how it works:

1 Corinthians 1:23,24 God planned from before the world to save mankind by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ Revelation 13:8 Ephesians 1:4.

Scenario from 1 Corinthians 1:23,24 The application is the same, for some, their heart is hardened by the work of Christ and for others, brought to their knees and a life-changing transformation. Matthew 5:44,45 He causes rain to fall (not literally persay, but the same consistent application of His gracious sustaining power Colossians 1:17 down to His death, burial, and resurrection. For this Calvinist, it means God loves, indeed, the whole world and that He indeed doesn't desire any to perish (different for double-pred/supras). Rather, He knows the effect of His loving actions ahead of time, thus is said to 'condemn' the unbeliever but, John 3:18 gives a universal: Condemned already. We all recognize condemnation falls to all men without Christ. Somewhere here, is a mystery of 'how' God acts and chooses. Arminians say 'by response' SORT of. That is, they recognize that God has exhaustive foreknowledge, but not exactly sure how He can know such thus they make it a 'response.' Again, it is beforehand, even before men are born, thus many believe Arminians are either closeted Calvinists or Openists conversely, by implication.

For me, It is simply a matter of making a choice, knowing it will effect as many as possible (Christ's work) and knowing also that "few will ever find it" and "narrow is the way." It is a rock and a hard place at that point. Why not simply zap all of creation so they cannot/will not sin? I don't know 'why' and no systematic sufficiently answers it. For me, because I truly see the same dilemma in every single theology I've ever seen, including Open Theism, It isn't the reason I particularly hold to one theological position or the other. Rather, it is which position seems to best support as a skeletal system, all of the scriptures I know. I do recognize in my own Calvinism, stuff I don't agree with, but I've been told one doesn't have to agree with all of John Calvin. Sometimes Amyraldian might be an easier way to see me, but I'm definitely a 5 point Calvinist, just not in the classic sense that many others are. I come to things a bit differently and I think, explain how I get there differently than most Calvinists I know of. Some on TOL have said I'm not one. To me, that isn't imperative, I just want what I say to be biblical. Others will strongly champion their systematic, but I'm more interested in the scriptures and being remade and molded by them.

As a Calvinist, when I read Romans 9 especially concerning Pharaoh "I raised you up for this purpose" makes sense in the light that God sent him ten different signs. One would have been sufficient. What did those ten plagues do? For Pharaoh, the exact same signs caused Israel to trust God and caused Pharaoh's heart to harden: He applied the same consistent character to both. One stumbled, the humbled. Matthew 5:44,45, then, for me, is the key to predestination. His loving actions cause some to despise, others to desire. In Him -Lon

 

[oatmeal]

Isaiah 46:10 1 Kings 13:2 Romans 9:19-23 Foreknowledge/predestination order is, for me, peering under the veil. It'd be presumptuous for me, if I spoke for God here. While many want to make 'something' seem just by their theology systematics, I want to be careful that I'm not putting my foot in my mouth. What scriptures do you use for this?

It has a remedial tenor between us.You are perhaps familiar with Supralapsarian/Infralapsarian? This is ever the discussed positions on this in the Calvinist camp. I'm a infralapsarian. Lon

Looking at

Isaiah 46:10

Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Surely God has a plan, a plan that He has revealed in part. There are many passages that have told of of things God foreknew that has happened and things yet to happen, some under God's direction, (Genesis 3:15 being one example containing both) and some things that were not God's will but were carried out by those opposed to God.

In order for God to reveal future events God would have to have foreknowledge of those future events. Thus foreknowledge precedes action or results as a result of having that foreknowledge.

Regarding

1 Kings 13:2

And he cried against the altar in the word of the Lord, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the Lord; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

God having foreknowledge of a believing man's actions certainly can foretell of those actions by means of a prophet that God chooses to reveal that knowledge to and have him prophesy about.

God has foreknowledge of all events and actions and thoughts of all that shall yet occur, the exercise of the free will of individuals in the future and if he chooses to let people know about some of that, that is His call and His call alone.

Without foreknowledge, predestination, in its religious, not Biblical use, makes all people robots without any ability to choose or decide. It that is the case, then the commandments of God to man become wasted words and meaningless, for why command someone to do something if it is not in the power of that person to willfully carry it out. In a robot, who has no mind, no free will, a command is simply a line in a program.

See John 8:31

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

There is a condition set for a believer to become a disciple:

It starts with one two letter word:

What does it say?

a. IF,

b. "Since you don't have any choice so why am I telling you any of this anyway, you have no choice in the matter"


If, not, "Since you don't have any choice so why am I telling you any of this anyway, you have no choice in the matter"

The believers were given the opportunity to become disciples, but in order to do so they would have to choose to continue in Jesus word, his logos, his message.

As far as Romans 9:19-23 goes, the same holds true.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God foreknows who will believe and who will not believe, thus He plans ahead for the benefit of those who will choose to believe.

We are more than conquerors through him that love us. Romans 8:37-39

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God already knows that challenges we will face as believers and has planned victory for us inspite of the unbelief of others, but receiving those victories depends on our trusting God's word, God' logos, God's message to us as Christians. Since God already knows what our adversary is going to do, to work in those who reject God, He plans ahead, He predestinates the solution for those those who believe.

II Corinthians 2:11 We are not ignorant of Satan's devices, and neither is God.

Foreknowledge/predestination order is, for me, peering under the veil. It'd be presumptuous for me, if I spoke for God here. While many want to make 'something' seem just by their theology systematics, I want to be careful that I'm not putting my foot in my mouth. What scriptures do you use for this?

Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Is God the author of His word, His logos, His message?

Is God the perfect author of His logos to us?

Yes, Even every jot and tittle is perfect in design, including the order of the words and concepts and phrases, etc.

Does God act before He knows what He is doing or does God act because He knows, foreknows, what He is doing?

Keep in mind that Hebrew idiom of permission, In the Hebrew language, people would speak of a person, or God, actually doing an act, but in reality, that person or God, is not doing the act, but allowing it to occur.

It makes sense that in a culture that looks at God as the supreme sovereign that all events would be attributed to God even though He might not have had anything directly to do with those actions.

When you present God's word to a person, there are two basic responses, rejection and acceptance of the gospel.

It is God's doing the response of the individual? Not at all. Some people choose to believe, some reject God

Did God force the person to reject the logos, the message of God? No, but presenting the gospel may bring the person to the point of decision either for or against.

Scripture talks of "I will harden Pharaoh's heart" Did God literally harden Pharaoh's heart? No, God had Moses, a god to Pharaoh, present God's truth to Pharaoh and Pharaoh's choice was to believe? No, P's choice was to reject God's word.

Thus in an indirect sense, God was responsible for Pharaoh's hardening of his heart simply in the sense that Pharaoh rejected God's word, His message, His logos to Pharaoh.

If God's foreknowledge does not precede God's actions, then in essence God is acting blindly and ignorantly, worse than gambling in a casino.

For then, he would be "the blind leading the blind"

 

[oatmeal]

God is not subject to such linear time values nor constraints.

His foreknowledge and His predeterminations are attributes that eternally exist in Him outside of time, which is not the same as (befores and afters) that we creatures experience in our temporaral lifetimes.

Who says?

You?

Sorry,

That is not evidence, let alone proof.

Romans 8:29-30

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Is God the author of His word, His logos, His message?

Is God the perfect author of His logos to us?

Yes, Even every jot and tittle is perfect in design, including the order of the words and concepts and phrases, etc.

Does God act before He knows what He is doing or does God act because He knows, foreknows, what He is doing?

If God's foreknowledge does not precede God's actions, then in essence God is acting blindly and ignorantly, worse than gambling in a casino.

For then, he would be "the blind leading the blind"

 

[oatmeal]

I guess the question is, what about those did He foreknow? Was it their existence? Their belief? Their nationality? Their repentance?

And is it a specific knowledge of specific people, or a general knowledge of a group of people?

Or was it even just a knowledge that there would be some people that fit that category, and those, knowing some would exist, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

"Glorified" is in past tense (just like the rest of the verbs). Does that mean He glorified people before they existed, meaning He prepared beforehand for them to be glorified, or is it talking about people that have already passed away?

Including "glorified" seems to suggest this passage is not talking about the recipients of Paul's letter to the Romans, except as a promise of things to come for them, but then it is an example passage, not a descriptive passage. Kind of like the passages where Paul talked about Abraham's faith or Sarah and Hagar.

God knows everything and He foreknows everything.

Glorified is in the past tense.

God's promise and His words are that certain, that sure, that dependable, that absolute

Romans 4:17

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


When God promised that to Abraham, not any of that had come to pass, yet God speaks in the past tense as if it already is the reality.

God's word is a sure word. What God says is truth, not guesswork, not wishful thinking, it is something to be reckoned with by either believing it or rejecting it.

God knew Abe would believe and that his sons would believe and that as believers of God's promise, God would be bringing His promise to pass. And He did.

In order for God to have chose us, He had to foreknow us, He foreknew and foreknows every choice every thought, every whim of our lives and minds and actions.

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God did not chose God rejecters to be holy and without blame, but He foreknew and chose those who would eventually believe and thus bring glory to his name.

And because He foreknew we would believe He chose to glorify us as well.

He planned to do so even before the foundation of the world.

This is especially notable because Jesus spoke of the glory which he had with God before

John 17:5

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Jesus took the glory that God gave to Jesus and Jesus gave it to "them" his followers.

John 17:22

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

It was God's will that Jesus give of the glory that he had with God before the world began and give it to his followers, and since Jesus always did the Father's will, he always did what God wanted him to do, it was God's intent that we have the glory that Jesus had with God before the world was.

To clarify a misconception, Jesus was not literally in existence with God before the world was, even as we were not literally in existence with God before the world was. God's foreknowledge of Jesus' absolute love and commitment and obedience to God's will and our eventual choice to believe allowed God to prepare for both Jesus and for us to have that glory.

That glory is given and more shall be given to us.

Romans 8

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Nang]

:nono: You may have been around some double-preds. God doesn't want nor desire evil. What He has determined, predetermined, is to work it out ala Romans 8:28

God willed to manifest Satan in His creation, in order to eliminate said evil. God willed to manifest righteousness in Jesus Christ in His creation, in order to redeem and reconcile sinners. Ala Romans 8:28

I am a Supralapsarian who believes in double-predestination because it cannot be denied that God is Sovereign over all things and works all things together for good for those who love Him. I John 4:19

 

[Lon]

God willed to manifest Satan in His creation, in order to eliminate said evil. God willed to manifest righteousness in Jesus Christ in His creation, in order to redeem and reconcile sinners. Ala Romans 8:28

I am a Supralapsarian who believes in double-predestination because it cannot be denied that God is Sovereign over all things and works all things together for good for those who love Him. I John 4:19

Understood, but it carries the tenor of "God wanting" it to happen. For me, prescribing such would happen is different. In the parable the Lord Jesus Christ gives, an evil one sows weeds. From there, God's redeeming work is enacted. Planned from before? Yes. Desired? No.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

When the Greek word translated "predestined" is used in the Bible the reference is in regard to the fact that those who are already saved during the present dispensation are destined to put on glorious bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

Nothing more or nothing less!

 

[ttruscott]

It has a remedial tenor between us.You are perhaps familiar with Supralapsarian/Infralapsarian? This is ever the discussed positions on this in the Calvinist camp. I'm a infralapsarian. Lon

The decrees of GOD: NEVER DID HE DECREE OUR FALL!!!

The decrees of creation as I see them:
1. GOD decreed the creation of every person created in HIS image with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to be holy or to be evil, for the purpose of finding and separating out all those in creation who would marry HIM in full heavenly communion.

2. GOD decreed the Divine Son to be the slain Lamb if any elect should sin.

3. GOD had the gospel proclaimed to every creature under heaven, ie to all who were created in HIS Image, Col 1:23, claiming to be our GOD. HE promised that any who put their faith in HIM by their free will would be predestined by HIS choice, election, to be HIS Bride. He also warned that any who reject HIM as their GOD by their free will would be passed over for elction and being HIS bride and would be eternally condemned.

4. Then everyone made their choice, ie, every person created in HIS image chose to put their faith in HIM or to reject HIM as a false god thereby separating themselves into HIS who wanted HIS promise of election and those who scorned him as a liar who were condmened forthwith.

5. Unable to abide with sin, HIS next decree was to the elect to repudiate their love and friendship with their friends who were now sinful so the eternally evil ones could be judged. Some few elect chose to rebel against HIS command to come out from among them so they too became sinful temporarily and in need of redemption.

6. The next decree was to create the physical universe and to move Sheol to the centre of the earth as a prison for all sinners from where they are sown, moved, to the world of men, Matt 13:36-39, and where the wicked return, Psa 9:17, where the KJV was wrong to interpret as turned into when it obviously says to return.

If all a decree to allow the fall means is to decree our free will, then fine. But HE never decreed any must fall, having no need for the sin of anyone for any reason but especially not for HIS potential elect, HIS potential Bride, those who so wanted HIS heaven.

 

[Truster]

The decrees of GOD: NEVER DID HE DECREE OUR FALL!!!

The decrees of creation as I see them:
1. GOD decreed the creation of every person created in HIS image with a free will and the equal ability and opportunity to choose to be holy or to be evil, for the purpose of finding and separating out all those in creation who would marry HIM in full heavenly communion.

2. GOD decreed the Divine Son to be the slain Lamb if any elect should sin.

3. GOD had the gospel proclaimed to every creature under heaven, ie to all who were created in HIS Image, Col 1:23, claiming to be our GOD. HE promised that any who put their faith in HIM by their free will would be predestined by HIS choice, election, to be HIS Bride. He also warned that any who reject HIM as their GOD by their free will would be passed over for elction and being HIS bride and would be eternally condemned.

4. Then everyone made their choice, ie, every person created in HIS image chose to put their faith in HIM or to reject HIM as a false god thereby separating themselves into HIS who wanted HIS promise of election and those who scorned him as a liar who were condmened forthwith.

5. Unable to abide with sin, HIS next decree was to the elect to repudiate their love and friendship with their friends who were now sinful so the eternally evil ones could be judged. Some few elect chose to rebel against HIS command to come out from among them so they too became sinful temporarily and in need of redemption.

6. The next decree was to create the physical universe and to move Sheol to the centre of the earth as a prison for all sinners from where they are sown, moved, to the world of men, Matt 13:36-39, and where the wicked return, Psa 9:17, where the KJV was wrong to interpret as turned into when it obviously says to return.

If all a decree to allow the fall means is to decree our free will, then fine. But HE never decreed any must fall, having no need for the sin of anyone for any reason but especially not for HIS potential elect, HIS potential Bride, those who so wanted HIS heaven.

I stopped reading at "as I see them". A silly statement from someone judicially blind.

 

[way 2 go]

When the Greek word translated "predestined" is used in the Bible the reference is in regard to the fact that those who are already saved during the present dispensation are destined to put on glorious bodies like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

Nothing more or nothing less!

not that simple

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'—
Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

As a Calvinist, when I read Romans 9 especially concerning Pharaoh "I raised you up for this purpose" makes sense in the light that God sent him ten different signs. One would have been sufficient. What did those ten plagues do? For Pharaoh, the exact same signs caused Israel to trust God and caused Pharaoh's heart to harden: He applied the same consistent character to both. One stumbled, the humbled. Matthew 5:44,45, then, for me, is the key to predestination. His loving actions cause some to despise, others to desire. In Him -Lon

If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying people are predestining themselves


Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table.
Luk 22:22 For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!"