ECT Predestination

[Squeaky]

Predestination
God the Father created Jesus first in the image of the righteousness of God. Gods foreknowledge of that righteousness is what God has been after sense the beginning. And Jesus was the only one that was ever predestined. And all those who are sanctified by Jesus will come with Him.

Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)

Rom 8:28-33
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
(NKJ)

Eph 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
(NKJ)

1 Pet 1:2
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
(NKJ)

1 Pet 1:2
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
(NKJ)

 

[beloved57]

All Scripture?

What about these words of John:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

Yeah, all scripture. John is scripture !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yeah, all scripture. John is scripture !

So these words are addressed to believers?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

 

[beloved57]

So these words are addressed to believers?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

All scripture is for believers !

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All scripture is for believers !

I never denied that. But now you change what you said before, that all the Scriptures are "to" believers. Now you change your tune and say that all Scripture is "for" believers.

Do you still say that these words are written "to" believers?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

 

[beloved57]

I never denied that. But now you change what you said before, that all the Scriptures are "to" believers. Now you change your tune and say that all Scripture is "for" believers.

Do you still say that these words are written "to" believers?:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​

The book of john was written to believers, as was all scripture.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[nikolai_42]

The only thing which matters in regard to the verses we are discussing is the identity of who it is that the word "foreknew" is making reference:

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "because" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done..it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

Therefore, we can understand that the word "foreknew" refers back to those who love God,the saved.

I don't disagree that those God foreknew are the saved. But, again, per scriptures that show that that knowledge is not mere foreseeing, I have to see foreknowledge as an active work which accomplishes that which Jesus refers (in the negative) to when He says "I never knew you"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't disagree that those God foreknew are the saved.

Then you will have to agree that it is the saved who are predestined:

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew (those saved) he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29).​

 

[nikolai_42]

Then you will have to agree that it is the saved who are predestined:

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew (those saved) he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29).​

As far as I understand it I do agree that the saved are predestined to be conformed to Christ. It's a package deal (so to speak).

 

[Jerry Shugart]

As far as I understand it I do agree that the saved are predestined to be conformed to Christ. It's a package deal (so to speak).

What do you mean when you use the words "package deal"?

 

[nikolai_42]

What do you mean when you use the words "package deal"?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8;29-30

Anyone who is foreknown is predestinated. Anyone who is predestinated has also been called. Anyone who is called has also been justified. Anyone who is justified he has also glorified. The point being is you can't have predestination to be conformed to Christ without being saved. The foreknowledge of God and the predestination of God - the calling of God and all that accompanies it - it can't be broken up. One implies the other implies the other etc...And either this is all hinging upon the individual's believing or on God's foreknowing.

 

[Danoh]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8;29-30

Anyone who is foreknown is predestinated. Anyone who is predestinated has also been called. Anyone who is called has also been justified. Anyone who is justified he has also glorified. The point being is you can't have predestination to be conformed to Christ without being saved. The foreknowledge of God and the predestination of God - the calling of God and all that accompanies it - it can't be broken up. One implies the other implies the other etc...And either this is all hinging upon the individual's believing or on God's foreknowing.

Respectfully...

Problem is, that is YOUR reasoning and its' result - from within said reasoning.

Thus, it only appears to make sense to you.

Because it is the result of both your own reasoning - from where you look at things - and that; absent of aspects of the whole you might simply no longer be able to take into consideration even when pointed out to you; given how entrenched you appear to be at this point; in what is clearly the traditions of men - that THEIR reasoning results in.

Not that any of us is ever free from that kind of a thing, be it the results of our own mis-fires in perception, and or of our own mis-fires in perception whenever we embrace the assertion of others; only because we were looking at a thing, absent of the whole.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Anyone who is foreknown is predestinated.

You have already conceded that the ones who were predestined are the saved. With that in view let us look at these verses which you quoted:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​

The saved (those predestined) were called. And the saved are also justified. And the saved are glorified. So this verse helps your argument none.

And you still admit that it is the saved who are predestined and not the unsaved.

 

[Danoh]

Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul's point is that whenever we find we don't know how to ask the Lord for understanding as to what the Spirit's take might be on a thing...

...whenever we find ourselves in one predicament or another seemingly absent of a means of properly looking at said predicament...

...we can take comfort in simply remembering that the Spirit not only does have a perspective on what's what, but a perspective that is in line with God's determined will to form in us the image of Christ...

...not through sufferings supposedly brought on us by the Lord, but through our understanding of His will...

...as revealed by Him in His Word...

...about how He takes those sufferings we encounter, and uses them through our understanding of His word applied by us by faith during said times...

...to conform us through both said sufferings and our understanding of His will through His Word...

...to conform us to the image of His Son.

THAT is the predestination ALL THAT is talking about...

THAT is the "all things work TOGETHER for good" that Paul is talking about...

Ephesians 1 Truth...in Romans 8...

The very intent he mentions at the very end of Romans as "the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began; but now is made manifest..."

...the Apostle Paul's "my gospel" by which God is "able to stablish" (stabilize or bring us to a point of an inward sense of stability, come what may, an inward sense of stability not only as to who we are in Christ, but as to the very means by which God is conforming us...to the image...of His Son...)

He ALONE IS the issue. He ALONE is to be our focus during both the good, and the bad...that is His determined will to conform us to the image of His Son - as we by faith make Him ALONE the issue...as we walk by faith in what He has said in His Word is the issue - His Son.

Colossians 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Dead Man Walking...

...in recognition by faith...of his newness of life...

 

[nikolai_42]

You have already conceded that the ones who were predestined are the saved. With that in view let us look at these verses which you quoted:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​

The saved (those predestined) were called. And the saved are also justified. And the saved are glorified. So this verse helps your argument none.

And you still admit that it is the saved who are predestined and not the unsaved.

If it is all rooted in God's (active) foreknowledge, I don't see the problem.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If it is all rooted in God's (active) foreknowledge, I don't see the problem.

The problem is with those who say that the unsaved are predestined and not those already saved.

 

[nikolai_42]

Again...it's all a part of the "package" - the entire list of Romans 8:29-30 has to apply to those of God's choosing. And while the placing of a man into Christ unto salvation is a part of that, it entails more than just justification. The foreknowledge of God implies, eventually, the glorification. So while that step in the process may mean only the saved man is predestined to be conformed to Christ, both his salvation and predestination have already been accomplished beforehand. Otherwise, you have all of God's plan hinging on man's decision.

 

[Right Divider]

Again...it's all a part of the "package" - the entire list of Romans 8:29-30 has to apply to those of God's choosing. And while the placing of a man into Christ unto salvation is a part of that, it entails more than just justification. The foreknowledge of God implies, eventually, the glorification. So while that step in the process may mean only the saved man is predestined to be conformed to Christ, both his salvation and predestination have already been accomplished beforehand. Otherwise, you have all of God's plan hinging on man's decision.

What, exactly, prevents God from giving people a choice?

 

[nikolai_42]

What, exactly, prevents God from giving people a choice?

You did not choose me, I chose you (John 15:16)
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48)

(Sorry, this is a handheld device - I rarely use them and have to be brief or it would take ages for me to post)

 

[Right Divider]

You did not choose me, I chose you (John 15:16)

That verse is about the choosing of twelve specific people for a specific purpose. You can't just force every verse to mean whatever you want it to mean to reinforce your preconceived ideas.

John 6:70 (AKJV/PCE)​

(6:70) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? ​

How about that one? One of the chosen is a devil.

As many as were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48)

The ones ordained are the ones that believe and trust God.

(Sorry, this is a handheld device - I rarely use them and have to be brief or it would take ages for me to post)

No problem.