ECT Predestination

[Jerry Shugart]

When we examine the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they are speaking of believers being predestined to putting on new, glorious bodies just like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29; NET).

At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Having Predestined us to Adoption as Sons

The following verse is also speaking of the same destiny of those who are already saved:

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).​

That is the same "adoption" that is in regard to the redemption of the body:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Ro.8:23).​

Again, this is speaking of the glorious bodies we will receive when we meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

Being Predestined to an Inheritance

The following verse is also referring to the same exact thing:

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph.1:11).​

Just two verses later we learn more about this inheritance" to which the saved of this present dispensation have been ordained:

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Eph.1:13-14).​

The redemption of the purchased possession will happen on the day of redemption and the purchased possession is our new, glorious body:

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption...the redemption of our body" (Eph.4:30; Ro.8:23).​

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.

 

[ttruscott]

"Having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph.1:5).

So we can understand that the verses which use the word "predestinate" in regard to a person's destiny are not speaking of anyone being predestinated to salvation.

Since Eph.1:5 refers to sinners, how can it not refer to salvation?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Since Eph.1:5 refers to sinners, how can it not refer to salvation?

Those words are addressed to believers.

 

[nikolai_42]

When we examine the verses which speak of "predestination" we will see that they are speaking of believers being predestined to putting on new, glorious bodies just like the Lord Jesus' glorious body.

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29; NET).

At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

The foreknowledge of Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 - is that not the same knowing as Matthew 7:23 and John 17:3 (just to start)?

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:29

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:23

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:3

To make it just God seeing ahead of time and predestinating those who would be saved to be conformed seems to undermine the language of salvation - and to make it a non-specific (i.e. impersonal) foreknowledge.

God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.
Romans 11:2a

That is directly referencing Israel of old. Israel was Israel because God chose them and elected them. Why wouldn't that be the case with those in Christ? Surely, if Paul had meant to say that God knew ahead of time who would be saved and predestinated them to be conformed to Christ, he would have used a different word. This, perhaps :

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Galatians 3:8

And Peter, speaking of David, says this :

He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:31

Foreknowledge is much stronger than foreseeing, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The foreknowledge of Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2 - is that not the same knowing as Matthew 7:23 and John 17:3 (just to start)?

The first two passages speak of FOREknowledge and the other two do not.

To make it just God seeing ahead of time and predestinating those who would be saved to be conformed seems to undermine the language of salvation - and to make it a non-specific (i.e. impersonal) foreknowledge.

Not at all. The following verse is in regard to the LORD's foreknowledge and it is not an impersonal foreknowedge:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

 

[nikolai_42]

The first two passages speak of FOREknowledge and the other two do not.

Unless the (prepositional?) prefix fore- changes the meaning of the root (knowledge), that doesn't change anything. In fact, I would argue that Jesus' words in Matthew 7 (never knew you) serve to underscore the fact that this condemnation goes to something that predates anyone's conscious decision to believe or not believe :

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

What is at the root of the issue is the knowledge of God - the knowing by God of His people.

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
I Corinthians 8:2-3

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 4:8-9

God's knowing of His people (which precedes their knowing of Him...e.g. Philippians 3:10) is known as foreknowledge. So whether or not the knowledge is in advance or not is secondary to the fundamental point that this knowledge is primary and soteriological. Establish that and then we can discuss where (in time) it exists.

Not at all. The following verse is in regard to the LORD's foreknowledge and it is not an impersonal foreknowedge:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So you agree, then? This foreknowledge is personal and directly related to belonging to God? Those referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 were chosen to be saved. Isn't that Paul's statement?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you agree, then? This foreknowledge is personal and directly related to belonging to God? Those referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 were chosen to be saved. Isn't that Paul's statement?

Yes, they were chosen to be saved and that happened due to the LORD's foreknowledge that they would believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The following passage is also speaking of the elect being saved through in the same way, through sanctification of the Spirit:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

So we can undrstand that both passages which I have quoted are in regard to salvation and those elected or chosen are those who believe.

That blows a big hole in the Calvinst's teaching of "Unconditional Election"!!!

Do you agree?

 

[nikolai_42]

Yes, they were chosen to be saved and that happened due to the LORD's foreknowledge that they would believe:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

Who chose them to be saved? Again, that foreknowledge isn't the same as foreseeing. The way you used the word foreknowledge there is no different from foreseeing. But as I tried to show in my initial response, it seems that the whole idea of foreknowledge is far greater than just factual knowledge ahead of time. It seems to identify one as the Lord's. Shall we say He doesn't know the sinner? He doesn't have knowledge ahead of time about those who will reject Him? Unless you believe He doesn't know, then this knowledge reserved for those in Christ is a particular sort that is evidence of relationship :

O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.
Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.
Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psalm 139:1-7

And the psalmist continues...

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psalm 139:13

Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
Psalm 139:16

Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Psalm 139:23-24

God does not foreknow the lost - but He knows them. His foreknowledge is salvation. Otherwise, how can He judge?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Jeremiah 17:9-10

The following passage is also speaking of the elect being saved through in the same way, through sanctification of the Spirit:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied" (1 Pet.1:1-2).​

So we can undrstand that both passages which I have quoted are in regard to salvation and those elected or chosen are those who believe.

That blows a big hole in the Calvinst's teaching of "Unconditional Election"!!!

Do you agree?

I agree that by grace, through faith and the sanctification of the Spirit of God men are brought to full salvation. But foreknowledge is not talking about the means by which God saves a man. It only speaks of whose work it is and when He accomplished it.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Who chose them to be saved? Again, that foreknowledge isn't the same as foreseeing. The way you used the word foreknowledge there is no different from foreseeing. But as I tried to show in my initial response, it seems that the whole idea of foreknowledge is far greater than just factual knowledge ahead of time.

The Greek word translated "foreknew" in the following passage means "to have knowledge of beforehand" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon). In this passage the ones which the LORD has a knowledge of beforehand are those who love God, who were called and those who were predestined:

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29).​

Do you agree with that?

Next, at Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

The reason why "all things work together for good" in regard to the saved is because the saved are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. The Greek word translated "predestined" means "to predetermine, decide beforehand" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

With that in mind we can see that the LORD decided beforehand or predetermined that those who are saved will be "conformed to the image of His Son."

That will happen when the Lord descends from heaven and the saved will put on bodies just like his glorious body:

"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).​

Therefore, we can understand that the word "predestined" at Romans 8:29 is not in regard to anyone being saved but instead it is speaking about the fact that the LORD decided beforehand that the saved will put on glorious bodies like that of the Lord Jesus.

Now tell me exactly what I said that is in error. Please be specific.

Thanks!

 

[nikolai_42]

So then what of those whom God did not foreknow? Does that mean He simply didn't know (about) them? Does that mean He only knew who would be saved but didn't know who wouldn't? You ask what you have said that is wrong, but the issue I see is that you have taken a dictionary definition and limited it when it seems scripture implies (potentially) more. And to limit it to mere taking in of information (ahead of time, granted) leads to the implication that God didn't know something (or someone).

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hebrews 4:13

Simply saying that this implies that predestination to being conformed to Christ doesn't change the necessity of salvation before (or contemporaneous with) being so destined. So if He foreknew someone, the necessity is that that person is to be saved (or else the conformity to Christ doesn't make sense - whenever that happens). And the scripture makes it clear that all those He foreknew were so predestined. So unless God didn't know someone (or something), there can't be anything else drawn from it but that the saved are actively foreknown by God and predestined as well.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So then what of those whom God did not foreknow? Does that mean He simply didn't know (about) them? Does that mean He only knew who would be saved but didn't know who wouldn't? You ask what you have said that is wrong, but the issue I see is that you have taken a dictionary definition and limited it when it seems scripture implies (potentially) more.

The ones who the LORD foreknew are obviously the believers, those who love God.

Again, tell me what I said that is error and be specific. If you do not like the meanings I gave for the Greek words translated "foreknew" and "predestined" then supply your own meaning for the word. And then use that meaning to point out my error.

Talking in generalities accomplishes nothing at this point.

 

[nikolai_42]

So do you believe in exhaustive Divine omniscience? If not, my argument won't have any place with you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So do you believe in exhaustive Divine omniscience? If not, my argument won't have any place with you.

Evidently you are unable to demonstrate that anything which I said about the meaning of Romans 8:28-29 is in error.

Why don't you just admit it?

 

[nikolai_42]

Evidently you are unable to demonstrate that anything which I said about the meaning of Romans 8:28-29 is in error.

Why don't you just admit it?

You said this of that passage and the definition of foreknowledge :

In this passage the ones which the LORD has a knowledge of beforehand are those who love God, who were called and those who were predestined:

Did God have any foreknowledge of those who wouldn't be saved?

EDIT : Maybe this will help...were all men going to be saved because of Jesus' (fore)knowledge?

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
John 2:24

Those He did foreknow...if that knowledge was just who was going to believe and who wouldn't, then He (by the literal definition you are holding to) couldn't have (fore)known those men who wouldn't believe. This is specific foreknowledge that excludes some. If God didn't know some, it doesn't mean He didn't know if they would believe or not (to use your terms) because by simple logic, He would know those who wouldn't believe as those who weren't in the group of those who would believe. Yet, not only does God know who believes and who doesn't (forgetting for the moment how and why that happens), but He even knows the details of the heart of those who don't (and won't) believe. Therefore, because this is a very specific use of foreknowledge (not all apply), provided you believe in exhaustive Divine omniscience - that knowledge is something more significant than mere taking in of facts. It is directly and inextricably tied to salvation itself (as you see in the scriptures of my original response).

 

[beloved57]

jerry

Yes, they were chosen to be saved and that happened due to the LORD's foreknowledge that they would believe:

False statement not found in scripture, which makes it a lie !

 

[beloved57]

Those words are addressed to believers.

They suppose to be addressed to believers, what a dumb comment ! Why would they be directed to unbelievers ?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Did God have any foreknowledge of those who wouldn't be saved?

EDIT : Maybe this will help...were all men going to be saved because of Jesus' (fore)knowledge?

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
John 2:24

The only thing which matters in regard to the verses we are discussing is the identity of who it is that the word "foreknew" is making reference:

"And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Ro.8:28-29).​

The key to the teaching of this passage depends on an understanding of the meaning of the Greek word translated "because" found at the beginning of verse twenty-nine. The word is a conjuction which ties the two verses together, and the word means "the reason why anything is said to be or be done..it is added to a speaker's words to show what ground he gives for his opinion" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

At Romans 8:29 Paul tells us why he says that "all things work together for good" for the saved, those he describes as the called: "because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son."

Therefore, we can understand that the word "foreknew" refers back to those who love God,the saved.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

They suppose to be addressed to believers, what a dumb comment ! Why would they be directed to unbelievers ?

I was answering your dumb statement here:

Since Eph.1:5 refers to sinners, how can it not refer to salvation?

Ephesians 1:5 says nothing about anyone being sinners. Instead, those words are addressed to believers, those who are already saved.

Of course you cannot tell the difference because according to you the elect are saved before they believe.

 

[beloved57]

I was answering your dumb statement here:



Ephesians 1:5 says nothing about anyone being sinners. Instead, those words are addressed to believers, those who are already saved.

Of course you cannot tell the difference because according to you the elect are saved before they believe.

You don't know what you talking about. Of course Ephesians 1:5 is to believers, in fact all scripture is ! There's nothing in the scripture to the natural man or mind, though about it!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You don't know what you talking about. Of course Ephesians 1:5 is to believers, in fact all scripture is !

All Scripture?

What about these words of John:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).​