Predestination and Time

[Tambora]

It has been said that GOD operates outside of time

Does not the very word "predestine" indicate a BEFORE point?

And if it was a BEFORE point, then GOD was within time at the point He predestined.
Otherwise there would be no BEFORE.
Right?

 

[nikolai_42]

It has been said that GOD operates outside of time

Does not the very word "predestine" indicate a BEFORE point?

And if it was a BEFORE point, then GOD was within time at the point He predestined.
Otherwise there would be no BEFORE.
Right?

However God operates with respect to time, (in it, out of it, above it, through it etc...) doesn't change the nature of time itself. At some point in time, God created Adam. Adam wasn't there before but was after. So does that mean God operates in time? Yes. But we also are told this :

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isaiah 46:9-11

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:17

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Revelation 22:13

What God says goes beyond time. If Daniel can view the image (with Babylon as the head of gold) in an "instant" as that which God has decreed - yet it requires hundreds and thousands of years to be realized in time, then it has to be that God's works and words operate in time even if His decrees are from eternity past. God need not be in time Himself (bound by it, that is) to do things that have chronological progression.

 

[Tambora]

God need not be in time Himself (bound by it, that is) to do things that have chronological progression.

So at the very least, we have to admit that GOD predestined within time, otherwise there would no "pre" (before).

 

[serpentdove]

However God operates with respect to time, (in it, out of it, above it, through it etc...)

This is Greek pagan thought. It's not biblical.

See:

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. By Bob Enyart
Predestination and Will: How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

 

[nikolai_42]

So at the very least, we have to admit that GOD predestined within time, otherwise there would no "pre" (before).

I don't know. I guess so. When He said "Let there be light" I believe He actually created what we call time. So I don't think it's a simple matter.

 

[steko]

then it has to be that God's works and words operate in time even if His decrees are from eternity past. God need not be in time Himself (bound by it, that is) to do things that have chronological progression.

So was GOD continually, infinitely decreeing or was there a point where He began to decree.
If GOD was infinitely decreeing with no variation, would that mean that His decrees are who He is inseparably?
Were His decrees made before the creation of the universe or after?
If one states that GOD's decrees were decreed in 'eternity past' but there is no sequence of events before time began then how can that be?

 

[Tambora]

So was GOD continually, infinitely decreeing or was there a point where He began to decree.
If GOD was infinitely decreeing with no variation, would that mean that His decrees are who He is inseparably?
Were His decrees made before the creation of the universe or after?
If one states that GOD's decrees were decreed in 'eternity past' but there is no sequence of events before time began then how can that be?

That's what I'm wondering.

 

[nikolai_42]

This is Greek pagan thought. It's not biblical.

See:

Is God Outside of Time? Not according to the Bible. By Bob Enyart
Predestination and Will: How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

I'm honestly not sure what you're saying is pagan since all I was saying was "whatever God's relationship to time is...". The scriptures say God doesn't change (Malachi 3:6) and that He was, is and is to come (Rev 1:4, 1:8 and 4:8) and that He declares the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). So God permeates time but is beyond it. In a similar way that we permeate 3 dimensions, God permeates even time. If Christ was slain from the foundations of the earth (Revelation 13:8 -- the type and shadow of the passover lamb was indicating something real that was already known and accomplished in God even if not seen in time) then how is that not God superceding time? He certainly acts in it but does that mean that act is initiated at that instant?

 

[nikolai_42]

So was GOD continually, infinitely decreeing or was there a point where He began to decree.
If GOD was infinitely decreeing with no variation, would that mean that His decrees are who He is inseparably?
Were His decrees made before the creation of the universe or after?
If one states that GOD's decrees were decreed in 'eternity past' but there is no sequence of events before time began then how can that be?

I don't say there isn't any order but I'm not sure if that's identical with saying "in time". Rather, what God decreed before the foundations of the earth is still in effect and unfolding. When dealing with beginnings in our relation to time, it is not something that we can understand. When did God begin? How is it He has no beginning and no ending? That right there bursts the bounds of time.

 

[Tambora]

I don't know. I guess so. When He said "Let there be light" I believe He actually created what we call time. So I don't think it's a simple matter.

I think it may be simpler than some try to make it.

Even the point in which GOD decided to create light (before He actually created it) indicates a timeframe ---- a before and after.
If you decree something to be BEFORE it comes to be, then even the decree was within time.
You can't have a before and after without time.

 

[Tambora]

How is it He has no beginning and no ending? That right there bursts the bounds of time.

Why, when time is merely a concept that differentiates one event from another?
If GOD did anything before HE did something else, then He is within time.
Even if GOD was idle at some point, His idleness would still be within time, as the idleness would be before or after another event of GOD.

The view that GOD has no beginning or end actually indicates that GOD was always within time.

 

[nikolai_42]

I think it may be simpler than some try to make it.

Even the point in which GOD decided to create light (before He actually created it) indicates a timeframe ---- a before and after.
If you decree something to be BEFORE it comes to be, then even the decree was within time.
You can't have a before and after without time.

Again, there is the way God and time are related and the way man and time are related. If God always was, does that mean there was always time? Who created it? After all, can't we talk (in theory only) about what there was before God? Because if God has always existed then there wasn't a "before" and so it changes the definition of time.

 

[serpentdove]

So God permeates time but is beyond it.

Your views come from Greek paganism not scripture.

In a similar way that we permeate 3 dimensions.

We permeate (your word) the dimension God has put us in for now. Angels may be around us but we need eyes to see them (2 Ki 6:17).

God permeates even time.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means." :AMR: ~ Inigo Montoya

Time is an interval from one point to another. Time is real. Choices are real. You aren't living in Back to the Future where you can go back and steal Biff's almanac. lain:

If Christ was slain from the foundations of the earth (Revelation 13:8 -- the type and shadow of the passover lamb was indicating something real that was already known and accomplished in God even if not seen in time)...

God doesn't have a DVD that he can forward through your life. For example, this is the part where nikolai_42 gets hit by a Mack truck. God sees what is seeable.

...[T]hen how is that not God superseding time?

Am I at a Star Trek convention

or am I on TOL? You want fiction or reality?

God wanted a family. He's calling out a people for his namesake. He's got some plans for the future that he'll make happen. That's it.

He certainly acts in it but does that mean that act is initiated at that instant?

He can act or not whenever he wants to. He's God. lain:

 

[nikolai_42]

Why, when time is merely a concept that differentiates one event from another?

Space does too. Is God "in" space?

If GOD did anything before HE did something else, then He is within time.
Even if GOD was idle at some point, His idleness would still be within time, as the idleness would be before or after another event of GOD.

The view that GOD has no beginning or end actually indicates that GOD was always within time.

If God did something in the 7th dimension (assuming time is synonymous with what we call the 4th dimension) what would that look like to us? Our definition of time - of interacting with it - is limited by our finite understanding. God can act within time or outside of time if He is before all things and is the beginning and the end.

 

[steko]

Again, there is the way God and time are related and the way man and time are related. If God always was, does that mean there was always time? Who created it? After all, can't we talk (in theory only) about what there was before God? Because if God has always existed then there wasn't a "before" and so it changes the definition of time.

Of course, there was nothing before GOD and GOD is necessarily infinite being, and the cause of all else.

The point concerns what GOD 'did' before He created the universe.
If up until that point He 'did' nothing from all eternity and then 'began to do' as in His decrees, were not those decrees done in sequence? And if there is a sequence of events then there is the marking of time, is there not?

 

[nikolai_42]

Of course, there was nothing before GOD and GOD is necessarily infinite being, and the cause of all else.

The point concerns what GOD 'did' before He created the universe.
If up until that point He 'did' nothing from all eternity and then 'began to do' as in His decrees, were not those decrees done in sequence? And if there is a sequence of events then there is the marking of time, is there not?

With you right up until your last statement/question. Then...I'm not sure. All I'm really saying is that our concept of time is necessarily finite since that is a limiting dimension of our existence. We are constrained by that dimension. I'm not saying God goes back and forth in time and plays around with things (which I think is what Serpentdove thinks I'm saying). Rather, I'm simply (and it's not simple) saying that order and time don't necessarily have to be exactly synonymous in this context. For our purposes every day, they are. But (and I'm having trouble expressing it) there seems to me that there is a definitional problem with time when you get to eternity and God. Daniel's vision clearly shows that history exists in eternity all at once (so to speak) and it takes time for it to work out on earth. That's just a mathematical reality. A four dimensional object "dragged" through space can only be revealed (to us in time) over time.

So order is necessary. Yes. But I don't necessarily think it is totally synonymous with "time" in the eternal sense. So God could have done something that (from our perspective) was spread out in time but in eternity would be more complicated than that.

 

[serpentdove]

...[W]hat God decreed before the foundations of the earth is still in effect and unfolding. When dealing with beginnings in our relation to time, it is not something that we can understand.

...From everlasting to everlasting, You are God... (Ps 90:2b). You should understand your relation to time. God gave the signs and seasons to help you out (Ge 1:14). You could buy a calendar. :idunno:

Incidentally, when the moon was born anew they called it born again. :Shimei: When Jesus said you must be born again (Jn 3:7), he meant that one must come out of the darkness and step into the light.

When did God begin?

Think back as far as you can think and then he began before that. What does that have to do with your time?

How is it He has no beginning and no ending? That right there bursts the bounds of time.

That makes God everlasting. You can say there is no time or you don't get it and be late for dinner if you'd like. :sibbie: See how that works out for ya. :granite:

 

[nikolai_42]

Your views come from Greek paganism not scripture.

We permeate (your word) the dimension God has put us in for now. Angels may be around us but we need eyes to see them (2 Ki 6:17).


"You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means." :AMR: ~ Inigo Montoya

Time is an interval from one point to another. Time is real. Choices are real. You aren't living in Back to the Future where you can go back and steal Biff's almanac. lain:

God doesn't have a DVD that he can forward through your life. For example, this is the part where nikolai_42 gets hit by a Mack truck. God sees what is seeable.

Am I at a Star Trek convention

or am I on TOL? You want fiction or reality?

God wanted a family. He's calling out a people for his namesake. He's got some plans for the future that he'll make happen. That's it.

He can act or not whenever he wants to. He's God. lain:

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. God's acts and decrees necessarily take place in time on earth. God acts and affects our time. Once something has happened in time it doesn't change. It is fixed. That's history. But in eternity (which comprises higher dimensions as Daniel's vision examples) things are more complex - we simply aren't capable of understanding it because we can't think "beyond" the bounds of time. So God's having always existed doesn't "compute". God is very real, very present and very active in time. But He is also beyond it.

 

[nikolai_42]

...From everlasting to everlasting, You are God... (Ps 90:2b). You should understand your relation to time. God gave the signs and seasons to help you out (Ge 1:14). You could buy a calendar. :idunno:
Think back as far as you can think and then he began before that. What does that have to do with your time?
That makes God everlasting. You can say there is no time or you don't get it and be late for dinner if you'd like. :sibbie: See how that works out for ya. :granite:

I never said there is no time. Our relationship to time and God's relationship to time are not the same thing.

 

[Lighthouse]

I don't know. I guess so. When He said "Let there be light" I believe He actually created what we call time. So I don't think it's a simple matter.

Why do you believe that? On what basis?