Predestination and Time

[serpentdove]

Is God "in" space?

You and your quantum realities and space time continuums. The flux capacitor is biblical by the way; but, we can talk about that later.

God can act within time or outside of time...

He can make the sun stand still (Josh 10:13) or freeze everybody in place if you'd like; but, the passage of time is still occurring (Re 8:1). We don't need alarm clocks in heaven if that's what you mean. :juggle:

God can act within time or outside of time...

When he gets up from his holy habitation, the mercy seat (Heb. 9:5–12, Re 8:1) that's the end of the Church Age/Age of Grace.

 

[steko]

With you right up until your last statement/question. Then...I'm not sure. All I'm really saying is that our concept of time is necessarily finite since that is a limiting dimension of our existence. We are constrained by that dimension. I'm not saying God goes back and forth in time and plays around with things (which I think is what Serpentdove thinks I'm saying). Rather, I'm simply (and it's not simple) saying that order and time don't necessarily have to be exactly synonymous in this context. For our purposes every day, they are. But (and I'm having trouble expressing it) there seems to me that there is a definitional problem with time when you get to eternity and God. Daniel's vision clearly shows that history exists in eternity all at once (so to speak) and it takes time for it to work out on earth. That's just a mathematical reality. A four dimensional object "dragged" through space can only be revealed (to us in time) over time.

So order is necessary. Yes. But I don't necessarily think it is totally synonymous with "time" in the eternal sense. So God could have done something that (from our perspective) was spread out in time but in eternity would be more complicated than that.

Good post!
That is basically the way I've understood this over many years according to classical Theism.
But I'm rethinking some things and enjoying the stimulating discussion.

 

[Tambora]

And if there is a sequence of events then there is the marking of time, is there not?

I would have to say yes.

If God did anything BEFORE HE did something else, then it was done in time.

 

[serpentdove]

Once something has happened in time it doesn't change. It is fixed.

Tell Hezekiah that (Is 38:5). :dizzy: Fate comes from Greek pagan thought, as well. :hammer:

But in eternity (which comprises higher dimensions as Daniel's vision examples) things are more complex - we simply aren't capable of understanding it because we can't think "beyond" the bounds of time.

God heard Daniel (Dan 10:12) but it took 21 days (actual days not pretend days) for the messenger to get to him (Dan 10:13).

So God's having always existed doesn't compute.

God is the one being who didn't have a beginning. You and I had beginnings. Parents had to change our diapers. No one had to change God's diapers (until he became a man and then Mary had to change his diapers).

God is very real, very present and very active in time. But He is also beyond it.

He is infinite, eternal--from everlasting to everlasting [Ps 90:2b] (no beginning or starting point of existence [<--->]). You and I are immortal [Ge 9:6] (a beginning, had a starting point and then live on into eternity [--->]).

 

[serpentdove]

I never said there is no time. Our relationship to time and God's relationship to time are not the same thing.

Since God has been around forever, a day to him seems like a thousand years (2 Pe 3:8). Since we haven't been around as long, a day to us seems like a day (Re 6:10).

"I've learned that life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer it gets to the end, the faster it goes." ~ Andy Rooney

I can't spare a square ~ Elaine, Seinfeld

 

[Crucible]

God predetermined how He would conduct His will with mankind, foreknowing all events. He cannot change His mind because if He knew beforehand He would change it, He would make the final choice from the beginning.

Inevitably, God is immutable, and He exists at all points of time simultaneously.

 

[Tambora]

Inevitably, God is immutable, and He exists at all points of time simultaneously.

If GOD exists in all points of time simultaneously, then there can be no PREdestination.
That the whole point of PREdestine, it is making a decree in advance (not simultaneous).
If He is making a decree in advance, then He is doing that in time, not outside of time (otherwise it can't be in advance).

 

[Crucible]

If GOD exists in all points of time simultaneously, then there can be no PREdestination.
That the whole point of PREdestine, it is making a decree in advance (not simultaneous).
If He is making a decree in advance, then He is doing that in time, not outside of time (otherwise it can't be in advance).

~False~

That's not even deserving of a rebuttal because it plainly leaves out a key factor :wave:

 

[Tambora]

~False~

That's not even deserving of a rebuttal because of how obvious the logic fail is :wave:

What on earth do you think 'pre' means, if not in advance?

 

[patrick jane]

~False~

That's not even deserving of a rebuttal because it plainly leaves out a key factor :wave:

What's the key factor?

 

[Crucible]

What's the key factor?

God existed before time.

 

[patrick jane]

God existed before time.

Who said otherwise?

 

[Tambora]

God existed before time.

Is that how He exists now (before time)?

 

[Lighthouse]

God existed before time.

How so?

 

[Nick M]

Right?

Yep.

 

[Nick M]

What is time? In layman's terms.

 

[Crucible]

What is time? In layman's terms.

Relativity.

 

[Nick M]

Relativity.

You must not know what that word means. Carl Lewis is not fast relative to Usain Bolt. Try again. Maybe an example like I just did will help you with coming up with a simple definition.

 

[Crucible]

You must not know what that word means. Carl Lewis is not fast relative to Usain Bolt. Try again. Maybe an example like I just did will help you with coming up with a simple definition.

Movement would be the best way to explain what time is, but it's misleading because relativity states that nothing really 'moves'- everything is simply relative.

I notice that people are extremely stubborn with the subject of physics. Everybody wants to be their own Einstein, but I can go ahead and tell you now that time is not anything other than what I've described on here

 

[Lighthouse]

Movement would be the best way to explain what time is, but it's misleading because relativity states that nothing really 'moves'- everything is simply relative.

I notice that people are extremely stubborn with the subject of physics. Everybody wants to be their own Einstein, but I can go ahead and tell you now that time is not anything other than what I've described on here

You haven't described anything.