God_Is_Truth
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Clete said:
maybe i'll ask for it for christmas, though i'm not big on the holiday really. i do enjoy seeing family and getting gifts for one another (as well as receiving!).
Post "Plot" Questions?
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maybe i'll ask for it for christmas, though i'm not big on the holiday really. i do enjoy seeing family and getting gifts for one another (as well as receiving!).
In The Plot, Bob suggests that the "circumcised" believers were still under the Law (at least those redeemed prior to Israel being cut off). In Gal 2:14-16. Isn't Paul saying that Peter and the others who were "...not straightforward about the truth of the gospel" were the ones " ...who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." ? Doesn't this suggest that they didn't see themselves as being under the law?
Be gentle, I'm new to this theology.
Be gentle, I'm new to this theology.
dale said:
I am not convinced that "The Plot" is infallible. Faith has always been the criteria for salvation (based on Romans). OT saints looked forward to the Messiah's redemption, while NT believers look back to His sacrifice. Faith is the root, while works are the fruit of salvation (Eph. 2:8-10). The OT had shadows/types/external law, while we have the reality and the law of love in our hearts.
Army of One
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Someone else here might be able to answer this better than me, but here is my take on it.dale said:
Even those who were of the Circumcision were still ultimately saved by Grace, because the Law by itself has never saved anyone. And I think that is basically what Paul is getting at in Galations 2, when he is rebuking Peter. His statement that "by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified", is equally true in both Israel's covenant and the Body of Christ.
Nice!godrulz said:
How about allowing those of us who are familiar with The Plot and agree with it to answer the man's questions without jumping in a poisoning the pot? If you disagree with the teachings of The Plot that's fine but comments like, "I am not convinced that "The Plot" is infallible." is a ridiculous thing to even think, never mind actually say. Bob himself wouldn't say that his theology is infallible, so why should you think any different?
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Following the law was not optional for those under the law. That's what being under the law means. If they stopped following the law then they lost their salvation. When we say that they were "ultimately" saved by grace we are saying that the covenant of law was under-girded by grace. That is to say that no one could follow the law perfectly, and so to whatever degree a faithful man failed to follow the law, God graced him out, sort of speak. But that is not to say that the law was somehow optional, because it wasn't.dale said:
In answer to your earlier question, Peter was not ignorant of Paul's gospel and he knew that he was there with Paul's converts and knew what gospel Paul would have preached to them. But when the men from James came, Peter got all nervous about what they will think if they see him eating with Gentiles (old habits die hard) and so he withdrew from them which sent those converts the message that there was still something unclean about them. That really got Paul's dander up and so Paul called Peter a hypocrite right in front of all of them so as to undo the damage Peter had done to his converts fledgling faith.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Well yes I suppose so but that's just the point. No one is capable of being perfectly faithful. Even a man who loves God with all his heart and does everything he knows to do in order to obey God, will fail to one degree or another. In fact, anyone who trully did have faith in God would have been very much aware of the fact that they are not worthy of God's forgiveness and would have relied completely on His mercy for their salvation without ever once thinking that because of God's mercy that they somehow had permission to disregard the law.dale said:
Resting in Him,
Clete
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So back to Peter and Paul. What then was the difference between the two? Those saved prior to Israel being cut off had to follow the law (as best as they could, what, according to their conscience? Was it about willful disobedience?) or they would lose their salvation? Those saved after Israel being cut off couldn't lose their salvation even for willful disobedience?
Am I in the ball park?
Am I in the ball park?
Yes. That is one of the issues that was debated in Battle Royale VIII.dale said:
Turbo said:
I understand the premise of "The Plot", but not all the details. The Galatians proof text alone should make one reconsider. I made a generic comment about faith vs law, so no need to get defensive. I was not critiquing "The Plot".
There is a difference between keeping the law with the motive to be saved, and keeping it in obedience to God as an expression of heart faith and love because one is saved. All believers in all ages should love God and man to the point that we do not worship idols or murder humans (both found in the Decalogue).
truthteller-
I know where you're coming from. I went to an AG church for 10 years, from 8-18. So I was pretty much raised in it. And I still have the tendency to pray in tongues sometimes. And I also don't think Bob believes that miracles don't happen period. Just that they're not happening the way, or on the scale they did in the OT times, or for the short time between Christ's birth, and when the previous dispensation came to an end. However, I also believe he believes that this will change after the rapture.
I know where you're coming from. I went to an AG church for 10 years, from 8-18. So I was pretty much raised in it. And I still have the tendency to pray in tongues sometimes. And I also don't think Bob believes that miracles don't happen period. Just that they're not happening the way, or on the scale they did in the OT times, or for the short time between Christ's birth, and when the previous dispensation came to an end. However, I also believe he believes that this will change after the rapture.
godrulz,godrulz said:
If you are following the law at all, all such works will be burned up on the day of judgment, all of them. You are not (supposed to be) under the law! And if you place yourself under it, you nail Christ to the cross all over again, or at least insinuate that His death was in vain.
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
Gal. 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
More to follow! I'm out of time for now!
Resting in Him,
Clete
truthteller86
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Thanks :Brandon: . I called KGOV today to make a pledge (I encourage others to do the same, as they are a little behind on their annual radiothon) and Bob happened to answer the phone. Since it's rare that I get to speak with him direct (and I know how busy he is), I decided to mention this thread I started. He said he addressed this issue in detail in his series on 1 Corinthians. Out of his sheer generosity and concern for me, he offered to send me this series right away. I already subscribe to the monthly Bible studes, so this is going to be a bonus for meLighthouse said:
. I can't wait to get this study ! As always, Bob said if, after I process the material, I still have questions, to let him know. In the mean time, if anyone who has insight on my original question would like to reply, please do so. I have not yet put this behind me as of yet. I would prefer responses that agree with Bob's teachings... I know there are a great number of TOLers who disgree and I do understand your position already.Thanks !
Michael
So the law wasn't optional for them....what all is included in the law? also, where is the line where someone will lose their salvation for not obeying the law? You said that they were "graced out" when they couldn't perfectly fulfill the law, so when is the point where they need to be "graced out"? Wouldn't it be when they commit their first sin? Then they need grace which they get by faith. But then how many sins can they commit before they need to be "graced out" again? How do they know if they are still saved? Can they ever die knowing they are saved? If their salvation was partly based on works than I don't know how they could be secure in their salvation. How would they know if they did enough? They have to obey the law, but since we all know no one can obey the law perfect, where was the line between salvation and no salvation?Clete said:
Salvation being based on works just doesn't make sense to me........
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