Post "Plot" Questions?

[truthteller86]

I am one of the many previously doctrinally confused Christians whose life was utterly changed forever after reading The Plot. As I read, each of my questions was thoroughly answered, however one question specifically remained. It's been some time now since I finished The Plot and sharing the truths presented in Rev. Enyart's life work has somewhat become the focus of my ministry...sadly it's mostly a ministry to Christians who are unknowingly misled into a life of legalism and guilt, as I once was. Instead of trying to present my remaining question to Bob directly, I thought I would start this thread to generate dialogue on any questions anyone still had after reading The Plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I appreciate any honest responses or comment to the following personal question, and if anyone else has a question after reading The Plot, post it here. Maybe Bob will view this thread and give us a nugget from his viewpoint.
--My "post Plot" question:

Now that I know and fully understand [and agree] that speaking in tongues was a sign and "passed away" as to its original purpose, and in the Dispensation of Grace, believers do not "have" to speak in tongues, how do I now reconcile the fact that I still speak in tongues ? (it's not like I can just 'turn it off'. I can choose not to pray in that manner though.)​

I was raised Catholic, got saved 02/17/1993, started going to a Southern Baptist Church, ended up at an Assembly of God Church, then on to "non-denominational", back to Baptist, one brief unknowing stint at a Presbyt. Church, now at a "Bible Church (kind'of Baptist)". Of course I was at the AG Church when I 1st started speaking in tongues and it happened when I was by myself, alone in a pew, on my knees praying. I can not, nor will not ever deny that it is real (and not demonic), but I do not place the weight on it I did before. Just one of those things, but I'm still wanting to know why Christians really do still speak in tongues? I would prefer an answer from someone who agrees with The Plot.

thanks,
-Truthteller86

 

[godrulz]

We cannot put experience above the Word. Some will say tongues is of the flesh, demonic, or psychological.

I also speak in tongues. I believe "The Plot" is wrong on this point. The charismata have not passed away, as evidenced by hundreds of millions of Pentecostal/charismatic believers. A Pentecostal hermeneutic/exegesis will biblically support the validity of tongues.

An uncritical reading of "The Plot" sounds good on the surface, but it is not without problems and weaknesses.

It is begging the question to assume "The Plot" is correct and then try to negate your experience or previous understanding of Scripture. I would exegete the relevant passages, in context, and revisit your new conclusions.

I have found Scripture/doctrine coherent before I was aware of "The Plot".

 

[truthteller86]

It is begging the question to assume "The Plot" is correct and then try to negate your experience or previous understanding of Scripture. I would exegete the relevant passages, in context, and revisit your new conclusions. I have found Scripture/doctrine coherent before I was aware of "The Plot".

Thanks for the reply. I'm not trying to discount my experience or previous understanding of Scripture. Maybe I just did not understand the 'brief' section in The Plot devoted to the issue. Bob never came out and said speaking in tongues doesn't happen today and I don't think he meant that. I just still wonder (even after considering all scripture on the subject) how it specifically benefits me, other than hoping it makes for a better prayer life. I never believed my salvation was contingent upon the gift nor thought that it was 'evidence' of a true conversion. I just viewed it as one of the spiritual gifts and I used(use) it...but for what tangible purpose, I still don't grasp. I know there are other existing threads on the topic, I just needed to make this one personal. Thx again.

 

[godrulz]

I Cor. 14 reminds us that he who speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself as well as speaking/praying to God (personal/devotional tongues). The public exercise of the gift with interpretation leads to edification of the church.

 

[Delmar]

We cannot put experience above the Word. Some will say tongues is of the flesh, demonic, or psychological.

I also speak in tongues. I believe "The Plot" is wrong on this point. The charismata have not passed away, as evidenced by hundreds of millions of Pentecostal/charismatic believers. A Pentecostal hermeneutic/exegesis will biblically support the validity of tongues.

An uncritical reading of "The Plot" sounds good on the surface, but it is not without problems and weaknesses.

It is begging the question to assume "The Plot" is correct and then try to negate your experience or previous understanding of Scripture. I would exegete the relevant passages, in context, and revisit your new conclusions.

I have found Scripture/doctrine coherent before I was aware of "The Plot".

So why is it that many, if not most, Christians do not receive this gift?

 

[Turbo]

godrulz, have you read The Plot? That is, all of it, in order, from beginning to end? Or did you just seek out and read the chapters on topics you had a vested interest in (miracles, etc.)?

 

[godrulz]

So why is it that many, if not most, Christians do not receive this gift?

Teaching that the gifts are not for today or are demonic discourages people from seeking the Giver of the gifts. The largest, fastest growing denominations worldwide are Pentecostal. Hundreds of millionsooo do receive the gift.

Acts shows the normative precedent of tongues being the initial physical evidence of a subsequent-to-conversion experience with the Spirit.

There are many reasons why many do not receive the gifts: sin, unbelief, rationalism, poor teaching/confusion, apathy, God's sovereign right to blow like the wind, demonic blinding, etc.

If one seeks the Spirit, He will not give us a stone.

This experience crosses generations, cultures, and denominations.

We should be open to lining our experience up with the Word, rather than proof texting the Word to negate a legitimate experience for believers.

I Cor. 12-14 is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts. It is not about their cessation in the first century.

 

[godrulz]

godrulz, have you read The Plot? That is, all of it, in order, from beginning to end? Or did you just seek out and read the chapters on topics you had a vested interest in (miracles, etc.)?

I bought the book at great expense (Canadian $ conversion). I am on page 65. I promise I will read the book cover to cover. I am enjoying it so far. I realize I have less credibility at this point. Based on some research on Mid-Acts roots and examples in the book of proof texting or sloppy exegesis (rely on NKJV vs Greek exegesis...Bob admits studying Greek many moons ago in the Battle), I think its claims go beyond what is legitimate.

One should wonder when a view makes much of the NT inapplicable to the Church Age.

What is your explanation for the Pentecostal revivals throughout church history, including tongues and miracles?

 

[truthteller86]

Thanks godrulz. I'm hoping still to get a response from the other viewpoint (someone who has completed [or written] The Plot, agrees, and can offer an answer to my question from that perspective). I know exactlly where you are coming from, except the

..."God's sovereign right to blow like the wind"

...part. There we will differ and leave Battle Royale X to the topic.

 

[Turbo]

I bought the book at great expense (Canadian $ conversion). I am on page 65. I promise I will read the book cover to cover. I am enjoying it so far.

You started a year and a half ago. You asked for spoilers about its conclusion, and you jumped ahead to read the parts you knew you'd disagree with first. Then a year ago you said you had started from the beginning and were on page 70. Now you're on page 65? At this rate, I won't hold my breath for you to finish it.

I realize I have less credibility at this point. Based on some research on Mid-Acts roots and examples in the book of proof texting or sloppy exegesis (rely on NKJV vs Greek exegesis...Bob admits studying Greek many moons ago in the Battle), I think its claims go beyond what is legitimate.

You have been making this same lame assertion for over a year. (You could use this same straw-man criticism no matter what version Bob chose to quote from.)

Bob quotes and teaches from NKJV by default, but that doesn't mean he thinks every verse in NKJV is perfectly translated. I've heard him teach why certain verses aren't translated properly, referring to the Greek (and other English translations), on many occasions.

When I saw the opening post, I could have bet that you would be the first person to reply. And I practically could have written your post for you. (I have read some of the Plot... Bob relies too heavily on NKJV... Some mid-acts dispensationalist conclusions are suspect.) It's the same response you give every time the topic comes up.

One should wonder when a view makes much of the NT inapplicable to the Church Age.

Fallacious argument from adverse consequences.

What is your explanation for the Pentecostal revivals throughout church history, including tongues and miracles?

I might as well try to explain to Freak why I don't think he's really an exorcist.

 

[Servo]

Here are the gifts to be looking for today:

Ephesians 4:11

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[truthteller86]

Here are the gifts to be looking for today:

Ephesians 4:11

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Thanks Shimei. I'm with you, however I'm still hoping someone on The Plot's side of the fence can answer my original question in the opening post. I'm not an advocate of speaking in tongues now and I'm not asking God to "take it back", I just need to understand.

 

[godrulz]

Thanks godrulz. I'm hoping still to get a response from the other viewpoint (someone who has completed [or written] The Plot, agrees, and can offer an answer to my question from that perspective). I know exactlly where you are coming from, except the ...part. There we will differ and leave Battle Royale X to the topic.

The Holy Spirit is likened to the wind. God cannot be boxed in or reduced to a formula. I believe the experience is for all believers and that there are hindrances to receiving the gift. I do not believe God is unwilling or arbitrary in whom He blesses with it.

 

[Jefferson]

I think tongues speaking today is a learned behaviour, or "skill" if you will. Buddist monks speak in tonges. Hindus speak in tongues. I don't think it's Satanic. It's simply a skill that is acquired.

In fact, professional linguists have analyzed tongues speaking from religions around the world and have found no difference. That's because gibberish is gibberish in any language.

In the Bible those who heard people speaking in tongues heard the message in their own language. Today, if a Chinese person hears an American Christian speaking in tonges, he does not hear it in Chinese. That's quite different from Biblical tongues.

 

[godrulz]

I think tongues speaking today is a learned behaviour, or "skill" if you will. Buddist monks speak in tonges. Hindus speak in tongues. I don't think it's Satanic. It's simply a skill that is acquired.

Buddhists and Hindus are steeped in demonic influence and power. They go into trances and speak in tongues as a demonic counterfeit.

Learning languages fast, like Mormon missionaries claim is speaking in tongues, is not what it is at all.

The whole point of Acts and I Cor. 12-14 is that it is a supernatural, unlearned gift from the Holy Spirit that bypasses the intellect and wells up from the spirit/Spirit. They instantly spoke in tongues as they were filled with the Spirit. There is no learned behavior here.

What does the Bible teach about the gift of tongues? It is not a learned behavior. What is the modern gift of tongues? What authority do you have to move so far from biblical exegesis to introduce a contra/extrabiblical concept and claim it is 'tongues'.

For some, it is a learned mimicking. This is another fleshly, psychological counterfeit (cf. demonic) that should not be confused with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jefferson]

godrulz,

Acts 2:5,6 says, "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."

Has this ever happened to you? Has someone who does not know english heard you speak in tongues but heard what you said in his own language?

 

[godrulz]

godrulz,

Acts 2:5,6 says, "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."

Has this ever happened to you? Has someone who does not know english heard you speak in tongues but heard what you said in his own language?

This has not been my personal experience, but I have heard stories of missionaries or university profs understanding the tongues spoken in a service that the speaker did not learn.

Acts 2 is about the giving and receiving of the Spirit at Pentecost. It is a unique experience and should not be confused with the charismata subsequent to this during the church age. In Corinth, Paul encouraged them to speak in tongues for personal and corporate edification. Thought their minds were unfruitful, they were speaking to God, not men. Walk through I Cor. 12-14 verse by verse. Acts 2 is historical narrative, while Cor. is more didactic.

 

[dale]

I'm new here, so please be patient. I just finished reading The Plot. Is this the place to go to get input on some of my questions? All the discussion seems to be about the first question. Is there room for more questions? Could this thread be categorized by question "subject"?

 

[Clete]

I'm new here, so please be patient. I just finished reading The Plot. Is this the place to go to get input on some of my questions? All the discussion seems to be about the first question. Is there room for more questions? Could this thread be categorized by question "subject"?

YES!

Please ask any question you like! "The Plot" is one of our favorite subjects. :thumb:


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

godrulz,

Acts 2:5,6 says, "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."

Has this ever happened to you? Has someone who does not know english heard you speak in tongues but heard what you said in his own language?

how many languages were there present on that day? surely not many right? 5 perhaps? maybe even 10? well if there were at least 11 apostles (not including matthias) then each apostle could speak a different tongue (a different language) and all would hear "in their own language". right?