POST GAME SHOW - Battle Royale III

[rapt]

Rev 7:17:

So since we have not one of the things mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27 then we obviously have all 70 weeks to go.

Wow, you know a person can actually learn alot more about disps and their weirdo, confusing, boring doctrine by reading the posts of the ones who ridicule it!

That's right, Rev 7:17! The Jews never got their iniquity reconciled, did they! So accoring to the disps, then the 70 weeks never even started! And like you said, since we don't find the word "Messiah" anywhere in the New Testament, surely we can deduce (just as we can that Church isn't the BRIDE because it never says "The CHurch is the bride") that the Messiah never came yet, huh??

DUH :doh:

 

[JackS]

Jerry,
What does this verse just go away?

and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise—heirs.

Deal with it. It's in the bible! Christians are the seed of Abraham.

Daddy daddy make the big bad verse go away! Is dosen't agree with what I believe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JackS,

I did deal with that verse.

Please read what I said again.If you disagree with anything in particular I said,then tell me what it is.But don´t say that I did not deal with it,because I did.I said that the promise of which the Gentiles are heirs can be found at Gal.3:8.I also said that being the seed of Abraham does not make the Gentiles the seed,or children,of Israel (Jacob).

The believing Gentiles are the seed of Abraham because they "walk in the steps of that faith of our father,Abraham"(Ro.4:12).

Now it is your turn.Do you belive the words of the following verse refers to ethnic Israel?

"For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto thee forever,and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Revelation717]

It's in the Bible, deal with it!

It's in the Bible, deal with it!

Oh no Jerry would never claim he is teaching doctrines of man, fables and lies, would he? Everything he has said has been proven backwards and forwards with Scripture upon Scriputre.

Yeah right!

Jerry who is the Bride of Christ Jesus?

You keep dodging but I throw fast, hard and accurate, and I use the Bible and the Holy Ghost to guide me. What out! :shocked:


Jerry says:

One thing that God did not create is confusion:

"For God is not the author of CONFUSION,but of peace,as in all the churches of the saints"(1Cor.14:33).

And when men purposefully ignore some Scriptures in order to preach the doctrines of men,the ending is CONFUSION!

What happens when they ignore ALL Scripture?

2Co:11:2: For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

OOOOPS!

Ro:7:4: Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


:shocked: :noid: :doh:

 

[JackS]

Hey Jerry,

You said:
.I said that the promise of which the Gentiles are heirs can be found at Gal.3:8.I also said that being the seed of Abraham does not make the Gentiles the seed,or children,of Israel (Jacob).

I can not believe you said this.

Lets see her:
Abraham -> Issac (Child of promise) -> Jacob

So what you are saying is that Christians are the seed of Abraham, not of Jacob because they are different lines. Is that what you are saying?

But wait my bad Galatians verse says that Christians are heirs to what was promised. HERIS! Was Ishmael a heir, no he was a child of the flesh. Was Jacob an heir? Why yes he was of the line of promise. Just like the Christians. If they are heirs, just as Jacob was they are of the same line.

You use Gal 3:8 but ignore what is just one verse above that.
6according as Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him—to righteousness; 7know ye, then, that those of faith—these are sons of Abraham,

Those of faith are the sons of Abraham!!!!!

So who has faith today, the nation of Isreal or the Christians?
Since the Jews, Israel rejects the Christ I guess that leaves the Chrsitians. How does a Jew today show the faith that God requires, why by believing on Christ. What does that then make him? A Christian! So the only way for anyone to become a child of promise is to become a Christian.

I love your plan! A Jew can reject Christ and contrary to what Scripture says they are still a child of promise.

No 2Sam.7:24 does not apply to ethnic Israel. Change Isreal to Jacob. Did not God change his name? Who was Jacob? A child of promise, a child of faith. The children of faith shall be a people unto God forever! That makes sense.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JackS,

"For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee forever;and Thou Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

You say that this verse does NOT refer to ethnic Israel!

Well,speaking about UNBELIEF,how can you say that considering that the preceding verse clearly identifies "Israel" as being the people who were redeemed out of Egypt!

"And what nation in the earth is like Thy people,EVEN LIKE ISRAEL,whom God went to redeem for a people unto Himself,and to make Him a name,and to do great things and awe-inspiring,for thy land,because Thy people,which Thou redeemedst from Egypt,from the nation and their gods?"(2Sam.7:23).

For you to deny that this is in reference to ethnic Israel is unbelievable.As I said earlier,those who teach that ethnic Israel has no future in God´s plans just cannot believe what is written in black and white.You prove my point!

You attempt to CHANGE the meaning of God´s words by saying that we must CHANGE the word "Israel" to "Jacob".BRILLIANT,Jack!Can´t you see that the reference is not to the man "Jacob",but instead to the NATION of Israel--"And what NATION on earth is like Thy people..."

Is typlifies the disrespect that you have for the Holy Scriptures when they do not match your false ideas.

Are you still willing to argue that 2Sam.7:24 does not refer to ethnic Israel?

And are you saying that the Christians are heirs to EVERYTHING that was promised?

What about this?:

"And it shall come to pass that,as ye were a curse among nations,O house of Judah and house of Israel,so will I save you,and ye shall be a blessing"(Zech.8:13).

When was the Church ever a "curse"? Are you willing to say that this verse refers to the church?

And although ethnic Israel does not have faith now,in the future they will:

"And it shall come to pass that in all the land,saith the Lord,two parts in it shall be cut off and die;but the third shall be left in it.And I will bring the third part through the fire,and will refine them as silver is refined,and will teast them as gold is tested;they shall call on My name,and I will hear them.I will say,It is My people;and they will say,The Lord is my God"(Zech.13:8,9).

So there will come a time in the future that the Jews will indeed believe God.In the future they will be a blessing to the entire world.And at that time the following will happen:

"In those days shall it come to pass that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations,even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew,saying,Wewill go with you;for we have heard that God is with you"(Zech.8:23).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Is the church the bride of Christ?

Well,first let me point out that the "bride" is the "New Jerusalem"(Rev.21:2).And let me also point out that Paul says that the "Jerusalem which is above" is our Mother (Gal.4:26).

As far as 2Cor.11:2 is concerned,it is noteworthy that Paul did not use the word "bride" but the ordinary word for an unmarried girl.According to Alfred Edersheim this verse illustrates the positon of a groomsman (or 'friend of the bridegroom') at a Jewish marriage.Besides their other functions,they were "the guarantors of the bride´s virgin chasitity"("Jewish Social Life",p.153).So here Paul is using that figure to express his "jealously" for the Corinthian Christians.

At Romans 7:4,Paul applies an illustration of marriage to a believer and the law.He said,You also died (or literally 'you were put to death',as was true of the Lord Jesus) to the law.Just as the believer "died to sin" (6:2) andso is "set free from sin" (6:18,22),so he also died to the Law and is seperated and set free from it (6:14;Gal.2:19),As a wife is no longer married to her husband when he dies,so a Christian is no longer under the Law.This separation was through the body of Christ because of the Lord´s death on the cross.As a result Christians belong to another,to Him Who was raised from the dead.

However,Scripture is plain that the Bride of Christ is our Mother--the Mother of us all.And there is not one Scriptual passage that statesthat the Church is the Bride of Christ.

The Church is not the Bride,but instead the Church is His Body.And the church will remain His body in all the coming ages.He has joined the Church with the Lord and we are His Body so "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towardsus through Christ Jesus"(Eph.2:7).

 

[Revelation717]

Is typlifies the disrespect that you have for the Holy Scriptures when they do not match your false ideas.

False ideas????

Jerry you've been rampant with false ideas.

Jack pointed out clearly what the Scripture clearly states:

Those of faith are the sons of Abraham!!!!!

So who has faith today, the nation of Isreal or the Christians?
Since the Jews, Israel rejects the Christ I guess that leaves the Chrsitians. How does a Jew today show the faith that God requires, why by believing on Christ. What does that then make him? A Christian! So the only way for anyone to become a child of promise is to become a Christian.

Well done Jack!

You seem to think that "sometime" in the future (everything is somwhere off in the future isn't it? It makes it easier for you to preach heresy if we can just say "Well it's gonna happen sometime") Jews will be justified.

Well Jerry you seem to forget the Bible tells us there were many Jews who came to the saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus.

But they were a remnant!

Never does it say the whole ETHNIC nation of Israel will be saved. And if that distant future ETHNIC Israel finds grace, what of those who now lie in graves, and died in unbelief, shall they as well be saved?

No never! So therefore it is reasonable to say that the Scriptures are true, unless they believe they shall die IN THEIR SINS! Whether or not they are ETHNIC Israel.

But what of those whom died in unbelief? If they are not saved then what does that say of your "PROOF" Scriptures?

You have failed to rightly divide and speak truth without mixture of error. I think you outright lie and I also think you know it!

Ro:11:1: I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Ro:11:2: God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Ro:11:3: Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Ro:11:4: But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Ro:11:5: Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The elect.

Somehow I think this ties into Matthew 24 and the Trib. don't you?

Ro:11:19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Ro:11:20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ro:11:21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Ro:11:22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Ro:11:23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

The Scriptures again are true, IF they abide not still in unbelief they will be graffed in, BUT NOWHERE does it say that they most certainly and absolutely be graffed in regardless.

And if they are graffed in what do they become but a Christian?

There are many Jewish Christians. These have been graffed back into the tree.

You do greatly err not knowing the Sciptures nor the power of God.

And why do you keep avoiding posting the quotes I asked you for. Is it because your a liar? I think this is rather obvious that you are. I don't think, nay I know you cannot know the truth because you are FULLED UP with darkness, a child of disobedience like the Jews of the synagouge of Satan, your father and true love.

The Bride is heavenly Jerusalem.

Well then I guess you made my other point for me, although you cannot connect the dots, we spoke of heavenly Jerusalem before but you continue to abide in unbelief, rather taking a knee to Baal your god and hope.

Be accursed ye that pervert the truth and glory of the Lord into lies and fables of men, unreliable, untrustworthy and good for nothing, yeilding and bearing no spiritual fruit, but ready to be cut down and thrown to the fire.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those of faith are the sons of Abraham.

Despite what anyone may say,I did not neglect this verse.Instead,I affirmed that it is true.However,that does not mean that Christians are the seed of Israel (Jacob).And that is exactly what some want us to believe.

In fact,since the Christian is the son of Abraham then we could not possibly be of the seed of Israel,because Israel is the grandson of Abraham.

But instead of accepting the fact that the Christian is the seed of Abraham and NOT the seed of Israe,they continue to insist that God has permanently cast away ethnic Israel and the Church now represents Israel.They also continue to DENY what Scripture so plainly teaches:

"For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

The only one who has dared to deal with this verse only does so by perverting the context in which this verse is stated.And the other person continues to avoid it like the plague.And Dee Dee is taking a break from dealing with these Scriptual passages.

He also says that Scripture never says that all ethnic Israel will be saved,but yet he does NOT deal with the verse I provided that states that all Israel will be saved--Zechariah 13:8-9.

And let us see whether there is a verse that says all ethnic Israel will be saved:

"And so all of Israel shall be saved;as it is written,There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,and shall turn away all ungodliness from Jacob"(Ro.11:26).

Besides Paul says:"...what shall the receiving of them be,but life from the dead?"

Speaking of ethnic Israel,Paul also says,"Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world,and the diminishing of them the riches of the world,HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULLNESS?"(Ro.11:12).

And Paul also states in no uncertain terms that "God HATH NOT cast away His people whom He foreknew"(Ro.11:2),but there are some who think that they know more than Paul.They say that God has indeed forever cast away ethnic Israel.

Also,he avoids the following verse:

"And it shall come to pass that,as ye were a curse among the nations,O house of Judah and house of Israel,so will I save you,and ye shall be a blessing"(Zech.8:13).

They continue to put their heads in the sand and pretend that all these verses do not even exist!

And since the Heavenly Jerusalem is the Bride of the Lamb,we would expect that the description given of the Heavenly Jerusalem would match the description of the Church,which is His Body.

Well,in the Church "there is neither Greek NOR JEW,circumcision nor uncircumcision"(Col.3:11).In the Church there is no distinction at all between the Gentile and the Jew.But that is not the case in regard to the Bride.The The twelve gates of the city bear the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Rev.21:12).

But since this description does not fit his false ideas,he just ignores it.Just as he ignores the plain word of God that ethnic Israel will be the Lord´s people FOREVER!

Why will he not tell us what these verses mean--2Sam.7:23,24?

"For unto us was the gospel preached,as well unto them;but the word preached did not profit them,not being mixed with faith in them who heard it"(Heb.4:2).

 

[JackS]

Jerry you said:
Is typlifies the disrespect that you have for the Holy Scriptures when they do not match your false ideas.

Game over. I refuse to continue. This is nothing but chasing after the wind.

Rev717;

Thank you.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

there was a battle royale three? I missed it. All I can see is this side show stuff.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hey PA, I resent that... there was plenty of side show-ish action in the Battle too!!! Any Debate that ends with one side having to resort to calling the other an idiot must have some entertainment value. And the funny thing is the way that Jerry actually insulted himself while attempting to insult me. He insists that all of us preterists are idiotics and that anyone who argues with idiots makes themself out to be an idiot and yet all Jerry has been pursuing is arguments with people he thinks are idiots!!! There is a delicious irony there.

 

[Jaltus]

Not delicious, it needed ketchup, but it wasn't bad.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

JackS,

Sorry if you do not agree with my comments that your interpretation of 2Sam.7:24 only demonstates your lack of respect of the Scriptures.

"For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee forever;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

You said that the "Israel" in this verse represents the man Israel.But in order to make that statement you are forced to COMPLETELY IGNORE the preceding verse that clearly says that the "Israel" is in reference to a NATION,and not to a man.

That is not treating the Scriptures with respect.That is showing that you do not believe what the Scriptures clearly teach and instead you choose to put your own meaning on the verses.

Scripture is clearly showing that the "Israel" of these passages is ethnic Israel,because it was ethnic Israel who was redeemed out of Egypt:

"And what NATION of the earth is like Thy people,even like Israel,whom God went to redeem for a people to Himself,and to make Him a name,and to do for you great things and awe-inspiring,for thy land,before Thy people,who Thou REDEEMEST TO THEE FROM EGYPT,from the nations and their gods?"(2Sam.7:23).

This can in no way be speaking about the man Israel,and anyone that says so is merely ignoring the real meaning of the verse and perverting the verse by saying that it refers to the man Israel.

And I do not blame you for leaving.Since it is obvious that the verses do not refer to the man Israel,that only leaves one option.It has to mean ethnic Israel.And of course the theology of the preterists goes up in smoke if the following words refer to ethnic Israel:

"For Thou hast confirmed to Thyself Thy people,Israel,to be a people unto Thee FOREVER;and Thou,Lord,art become their God"(2Sam.7:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[JackS]

Anyone catch that hot breeze blowing by here?

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Hey Jack remember what I said in the Battle....

Today's Weather Report: More blustery hot air coming off the coast of Mexico..."

Apparently that front has not blown over.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

watch her run

watch her run

...and a stiff breeze caused by Dee Dee running as fast as she can from answering any Scriptual passages that prove that the preterist teaching is in error!

 

[cirisme]

Dee Dee,

That is funny!! Well here is what happened to me.. Optimus very kindly posted a question over on another thread asking what preterism was... I had to do a double-take on the avatar and name because that if you were asking that, you really haven't been paying attention

Well, I stared at one of his posts for several minutes trying to figure out two things: (A) When did I write this? and (B) How could my post count drop to about 5 in such a short time?

I was in a near panic about B.

 

[Dee Dee Warren]

Jerry like I said... I am very happy to thrash you further. But in light of your dancing feet and obvious lack of better things to do, I insist upon a few ground rules which you are well aware of, and which are perfectly reasonable. I am also willing to let you add ground rules of your own. You are obviously frightened of being disarmed from your dodge-a-rama so you will not agree to the ground rules. The offer remains open.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

BUt if he keeps arguing with you, isn't he making himself out to be an idiot?