pacifism for true Jesus' followers.

[Tambora]

So how come you disregard most of the new testament including Jesus and the other apostles except for Paul?

I disregard none of scripture.

And I've noticed that the Bible is used as it suits by some, I thought you were under grace and not the law, so how come that you are now bringing up that it's alright to kill?

The law tells what sin is.
The law commanded killings.
If all killing were sin, the law would not allow any killing.
But the law not only allowed killings, but commanded killings.
Do you think you are nicer than GOD?

 

[marhig]

I disregard none of scripture.

The law tells what sin is.
The law commanded killings.
If all killing were sin, the law would not allow any killing.
But the law not only allowed killings, but commanded killings.
Do you think you are nicer than GOD?

What? Those in your church here are always saying "those scriptures are not for us they for the Jews," thus you disregard scripture!

The law shows us our sins, and Christ by the spirit through faith gives us the strength to overcome sin. This is done by the grace of God! The fruits of the spirit are given by the grace of God. Murder is a work of the flesh and not a fruit of the Spirit!

Seeing as you are bringing up the laws, what about the law "thou shalt not kill"?

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm sorry JR But I don't agree with what you have said,

I am only showing you what the Bible says.

I understand that sometimes it's hard to forgive, and we all go through different things, but hopefully God will give us the strength to do so.

I don't disagree that forgiveness is hard. But that's not the issue. The issue is WHEN we are supposed to forgive.

Also, none of the verses that I quoted said that others have to repent before we forgive,

You're right. and I told you why. The verses that said "forgive and you will be forgiven" are part of the law. In other words, "do this and you will be rewarded."

However, the other verse you gave, said (and I'll paraphrase) "forgive as God forgave you." That is grace. See the difference? And God forgave us after we who are not under the law repented.

Jesus taught the Law. That was His entire ministry, and that was directed towards the JEWS. "Christians" did not exist until later, under Paul's ministry, hence the difference between the verses you gave from Matthew and Mark, who were both under the law as Jews, and the verse from Ephesians, which was written by Paul, who was also a Jew, but was sent to the Gentiles, who were not under the Law.

If you are a Christian, you are NOT to be under the Law, for law kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Corinthians 3:6) You will not find the word "grace" in the four Gospels, because grace is not what was taught.

if we haven't got it within our hearts to forgive, then we are in a bad way, and it can eat us up. I'm not on about being all over them, but to let it go from within and not let it turn to hatred. If we haven't got a forgiving heart, hardness can set in.

Again, more psychobabble.

I asked you before, had they who crucified Jesus on the cross repented when he forgave them?

Can you, Marhig, forgive someone who has wronged you?

Can you forgive someone who has not wronged you, but has wronged someone else?

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[marhig]

I am only showing you what the Bible says.



I don't disagree that forgiveness is hard. But that's not the issue. The issue is WHEN we are supposed to forgive.



You're right. and I told you why. The verses that said "forgive and you will be forgiven" are part of the law. In other words, "do this and you will be rewarded."

However, the other verse you gave, said (and I'll paraphrase) "forgive as God forgave you." That is grace. See the difference? And God forgave us after we who are not under the law repented.

Jesus taught the Law. That was His entire ministry, and that was directed towards the JEWS. "Christians" did not exist until later, under Paul's ministry, hence the difference between the verses you gave from Matthew and Mark, who were both under the law as Jews, and the verse from Ephesians, which was written by Paul, who was also a Jew, but was sent to the Gentiles, who were not under the Law.

If you are a Christian, you are NOT to be under the Law, for law kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Corinthians 3:6) You will not find the word "grace" in the four Gospels, because grace is not what was taught.



Again, more psychobabble.



Can you, Marhig, forgive someone who has wronged you?

Can you forgive someone who has not wronged you, but has wronged someone else?

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It's not up to me to forgive others who haven't wronged me, that's between whoever was wronged and the person who wronged them.

Jesus said taught that we are to forgive those who wrong us.

And I'm wondering if you can answer my question please, did Jesus forgive those who crucified him even though they hadn't repented?

 

[Tambora]

What? Those in your church here are always saying "those scriptures are not for us they for the Jews," thus you disregard scripture!

Let's take a real good look at your flawed logic.

Matthew 16:20 KJV
(20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


Do you disregard that scripture for you to obey today?
Or do you also acknowledge, as MADs do, that this scripture is not for us to obey today?

The law shows us our sins, and Christ by the spirit through faith gives us the strength to overcome sin.

And yet you have not overcome sin, because you admit you still sin.

This is done by the grace of God!

Grace is unmerited.
If grace is unmerited, and it is, then you cannot merit it even by overcoming (which you have not done anyway).

The fruits of the spirit are given by the grace of God. Murder is a work of the flesh and not a fruit of the Spirit!

One should never murder. But not all killing is murder. You do know that, right?

Seeing as you are bringing up the laws, what about the law "thou shalt not kill"?

Well, nevermind. I see you do not know the difference between killing and murder.
That would be a good study for you to do, so you won't keep looking so foolish.

 

[JudgeRightly]

So how come you disregard most of the new testament including Jesus and the other apostles except for Paul?

Because there are two covenants that God made with Abraham.

And I've noticed that the Bible is used as it suits by some, I thought you were under grace and not the law, so how come that you are now bringing up that it's alright to kill?

All murder is killing. Not all killing is murder.

I disregard none of scripture.

The law tells what sin is.
The law commanded killings.
If all killing were sin, the law would not allow any killing.
But the law not only allowed killings, but commanded killings.
Do you think you are nicer than GOD?

kgov.com/nice
kgov.com/judge

What? Those in your church here are always saying "those scriptures are not for us they for the Jews," thus you disregard scripture!

Should a Christian follow the teachings of the law? or the teachings of grace?

The law shows us our sins, and Christ by the spirit through faith gives us the strength to overcome sin. This is done by the grace of God! The fruits of the spirit are given by the grace of God. Murder is a work of the flesh and not a fruit of the Spirit!

This is probably the most accurate thing you have said this entire thread. Unfortunately you follow it with:

Seeing as you are bringing up the laws, what about the law "thou shalt not kill"?

There are two different words (just like in english) for murder and kill in hebrew.

Murder - ratsatch
Kill - harag

The word used in Exodus 20:13 is ratsatch.

Therefore, the verse is accurately translated as "Thou shall not murder."

This does not contradict the later verse where God commands that the murderer be executed.

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[marhig]

Let's take a real good look at your flawed logic.

Matthew 16:20 KJV
(20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.


Do you disregard that scripture for you to obey today?
Or do you also acknowledge, as MADs do, that this scripture is not for us to obey today?




And yet you have not overcome sin, because you admit you still sin.


Grace is unmerited.
If grace is unmerited, and it is, then you cannot merit it even by overcoming (which you have not done anyway).



One should never murder. But not all killing is murder. You do know that, right?

Well, nevermind. I see you do not know the difference between killing and murder.
That would be a good study for you to do, so you won't keep looking so foolish.

Those in your church teach that Jesus taught the kingdom gospel which is not for you, you are under Paul's grace gospel. So which part of the kingdom gospel do you follow then?

Yes I sin, but hopefully not wilfully, my heart is convicted by the Spirit and I can't do what I would have done. Wilful sinning is wrong before God. Can you do something wrong when you know that it is wrong before God?

And to purposely kill another person is murder Tambora, regardless of how is twisted not to be so.

 

[Tambora]

All murder is killing. Not all killing is murder.



kgov.com/nice
kgov.com/judge

Two excellent articles!

There are two different words (just like in english) for murder and kill in hebrew.

Murder - ratsatch
Kill - harag

The word used in Exodus 20:13 is ratsatch.

Therefore, the verse is accurately translated as "Thou shall not murder."

This does not contradict the later verse where God commands that the murderer be executed.

:thumb:

 

[marhig]

Because there are two covenants that God made with Abraham.



All murder is killing. Not all killing is murder.



kgov.com/nice
kgov.com/judge



Should a Christian follow the teachings of the law? or the teachings of grace?



This is probably the most accurate thing you have said this entire thread. Unfortunately you follow it with:



There are two different words (just like in english) for murder and kill in hebrew.

Murder - ratsatch
Kill - harag

The word used in Exodus 20:13 is ratsatch.

Therefore, the verse is accurately translated as "Thou shall not murder."

This does not contradict the later verse where God commands that the murderer be executed.

Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app

Ok what's the difference?

 

[Tambora]

So which part of the kingdom gospel do you follow then?

The kingdom gospel included the law.
And as scripture says, if you fail in any portion of the law, you are guilty of the whole law.

Yes I sin, but hopefully not wilfully,

Sin is sin.
All sin must be paid for.

Wilful sinning is wrong before God.

Any sin.

Can you do something wrong when you know that it is wrong before God?

If you are still sinning, which you admit you do, then yes you can do something wrong before GOD.
You need the one sure payment that covers all sin.

And to purposely kill another person is murder Tambora, regardless of how is twisted not to be so.

Then GOD commanded folks to sin????
Do you hear yourself?

 

[marhig]

The kingdom gospel included the law.
And as scripture says, if you fail in any portion of the law, you are guilty of the whole law.

Sin is sin.
All sin must be paid for.

Any sin.

If you are still sinning, which you admit you do, then yes you can do something wrong before GOD.
You need the one sure payment that covers all sin.

Then GOD commanded folks to sin????
Do you hear yourself?

What's the difference between killing a person and murder?

 

[JudgeRightly]

It's not up to me to forgive others who haven't wronged me, that's between whoever was wronged and the person who wronged them.

I'm glad you recognize this.

Jesus said taught that we are to forgive those who wrong us.

Jesus said, in Luke 17:3, that we are to forgive if the person who has wronged us has repented. He did not teach to forgive outright, or do you think that the verses you provided earlier contradict Luke 17:3? I tell you NO! They are complimentary.

In other words, all the verses we have posted so far can be read like this:

If your brother sins against you, and he comes to you and repents, then A) if you are under the law, forgive him, and God will forgive you, and B) if you are under grace, forgive him as God has forgiven you.

There is no contradiction, you're just not understanding the difference between the covenants of law and grace.

And I'm wondering if you can answer my question please, did Jesus forgive those who crucified him even though they hadn't repented?

I can, but I won't, because you wouldn't understand the answer anyways, or at least you're not ready for the explanation for it.

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[Tambora]

Ok what's the difference?

Ever heard the phrase "without cause"?

There is a time to kill.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[marhig]

I'm glad you recognize this.



Jesus said, in Luke 17:3, that we are to forgive if the person who has wronged us has repented. He did not teach to forgive outright, or do you think that the verses you provided earlier contradict Luke 17:3? I tell you NO! They are complimentary.

In other words, all the verses we have posted so far can be read like this:

If your brother sins against you, and he comes to you and repents, then A) if you are under the law, forgive him, and God will forgive you, and B) if you are under grace, forgive him as God has forgiven you.

There is no contradiction, you're just not understanding the difference between the covenants of law and grace.



I can, but I won't, because you wouldn't understand the answer anyways, or at least you're not ready for the explanation for it.

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Not ready for the answer?

Jesus forgave those who crucified him without them repenting, why of we're not to do so?

 

[marhig]

Ever heard the phrase "without cause"?

There is a time to kill.

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV
(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

So what's the difference between killing a person and murdering them?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Ok what's the difference?

What's the difference between killing a person and murder?

The difference is that murder is always a sin, and can never be justified, whereas killing someone can sometimes be justified, especially as a punishment for crime.

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[marhig]

The difference is that murder is always a sin, and can never be justified, whereas killing someone can sometimes be justified, especially as a punishment for crime.

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What if they repent?

 

[JudgeRightly]

So what's the difference between killing a person and murdering them?

See my above comment.

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[marhig]

See my above comment.

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Could you kill someone?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Could you kill someone?

If someone entered my house at night, and in the process of me subduing him, I kill him, I would not be condemned for killing him.

However, if that same person were to enter my house during the day, and I killed them, then what I did was unjustified, and I would be condemned.

However, I do not have the right to kill someone for committing a capital crime. That responsibility falls to the government.

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