ECT Our triune God

Pierac

New member
You don’t even know how to use a concordance, brother, how then are you going to understand the English translation?

You want the ‘only true God’ to apply to the Father, and yet it is directly coupled to the Son who was sent by the Father.

Please tell us how the Father sends the Father?!

That's easy! Trinitarians like you make up the fable that Jesus was the Father! You ignore the Fact that Jesus was Sent by the Father. God can not be sent ! Thus the One true God sent his begotten son as scripture declares! :rolleyes:

BTY, Unlike you... I don't need a concordance to read Greek!

Your stupidity really does make trinitarians look bad! Even they would not use your so easily spanked examples! You should listen to their private P.M.'s telling you to shut up! Your making them look more foolish than they already do! :readthis:


I own you too!
:poly::sherlock:
Paul
 

Pierac

New member
Pierac wrote:

The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He claimed to be the Son of God which was the same as profaning the name of YHWH (John 19:7; Leviticus 24:16). To claim to be the Son of God was tantamount to claiming equality with God (John 5:18).

You need to bone up on Jewish thought.

No my friend, it is you who needs to bone up on Jewish thought! Claiming equality with God is not the same as claiming to be God!

Now... Put on your reading glasses and get ready to learn about the very Hebraic concept of Agency! :readthis:


Agency

The foundation of our Bible is the OT. It contains the first three-quarters of our Bible. It stands to reason that if we misunderstand this Hebrew foundation then we construct a system of error. The art of successful reading is generally to let the last quarter of a book agree with the first three-quarters. As the grand finale of the Bible, the NT agrees with and is consistent with its OT heritage. It might sound like an over-simplification to say that the Bible is a Hebrew book and must be approached through "Hebrew eyes;" however, it was written within the culture and thought-forms of the Middle East. In order to understand its message we must become familiar with the thought-forms, the idioms, the culture and the customs of those who lived in Biblical times. Every sincere reader of the Bible understands this. Doing it is the challenge.

H. N. Snaith in his book, "The Distinctive Ideas of the Old Testament," writes "Christianity itself has tended to suffer from a translation out of the Prophets and into Plato." (p161) "Our position is that the reinterpretation of Biblical theology in terms of the ideas of the Greek philosophers has been both a widespread throughout the centuries and everywhere destructive to the essence of the Christian faith." (p187.). Snaith also makes this remark that if his "thesis" is correct: "then neither Catholic nor Protestant theology is based on Biblical theology. In each case we have a denomination of Christian theology by Greek thought We hold that there can be no right (theology) until we have come to a clear view of the distinctive ideas of both Old and New Testaments and their differences from the pagan ideas which have so largely dominated Christian thought." (p188.).

With the passing of many centuries since Scriptures were written much of the original intent has been buried under the accretions of generations of human tradition. According to Mr. Deuble a lot of Bible confusion can be cleared up by understanding "The Principle of Agency."

A common feature of the Hebrew Bible is the concept (some even call it the "law") of Jewish agency. All Old Testament scholars and commentators recognize that in Jewish custom whenever a superior commissioned an agent to act on his behalf, the agent was regarded as the person himself. This is well expressed in the Encyclopedia of the Jewish religion.
Thus in Hebrew custom whenever an agent was sent to act for his master it was as though that lord himself was acting and speaking. An equivalent in our culture to the Jewish custom of agency would be one who is authorized to act as Power of Attorney, or more strongly one who is given Enduring Power of Attorney. Such an agent has virtually unlimited powers to act on behalf of the one who appointed him.

Let's look at one of the stories in the Old Testament with this new mindset. In the story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus 3, "who" is it who appears to Moses and talked to him? My answer once was typical of the vast majority in the Church. Of course it was God himself, Yahweh, who spoke to Moses. After all, the text states that "'God' called to him from the midst of the bush and 'said', 'Moses, Moses!'" (v4).
Verse 6 is even more convincing when the same speaker says, "'I am' the 'God' of your father, 'the God' of Abraham, 'the God' of Isaac, and 'the God' of Jacob.' Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at 'God'." Surely it was Jehovah God himself who appear to Moses and who personally spoke? But what do we make of verse 2 that prefaces this narrative by stating that "'the angel of the LORD' appeared" to Moses from the midst of the brush? Many scholars have declared this angel to be God himself, even the pre-existing Christ. They make much of the definitive article and point out that this was a particular angel not just any angel.
This is a fancy bit of footwork that disregards the Hebrew text as we shall see. If we turn to the New Testament's commentary on this incident, we will see how Hebrews understood their own Scriptures.

Let us now turn to answer our question: Who is it who appears to Moses and talks to him? The martyr Stephen was a man "filled with the Holy Spirit." Let's listen to his commentary on the burning bush incident. He clearly states that it was "an angel who appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush" (Acts 7:30) As Moses approached this phenomenon, "there came the voice of the Lord: I am the God of your father. The Lord said to him, 'Take off the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. (31-33).

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. The angel of the Lord says, "I am God." The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

Let's look at just one more example. In Acts 12, the apostle Peter is in jail about to be executed. But while he was asleep, "behold, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared, and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter's side and roused him, saying, 'Get up quickly.' And his chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, 'Gird yourself and put on your sandals and follow me'" (Acts 12:7-8). Peter thought he was dreaming. As he followed the angel past the guards, out through the iron gate which "opened for them by itself," Peter "did not know what was being 'done by the "angel"' was real, but thought he was seeing a vision"(v.9).
Now the Church was meeting in a house and praying for Peter's release. Peter started banging on the house door and Rhoda, the servant girl went to open the door Once Peter was eventually inside you can imagine the stir in that place. Peter motions with his hand for everyone to be quiet. He told them his incredible story. And what did he say? "He described to them how 'the LORD' had led him out of prison" (v.17).

So who really did get Peter out of jail? The angel or the Lord? The text says both did. But we know that the Lord sent the angel to do the actual work. To the Hebrew mind, it was really the Lord who rescued Peter.

There are many such OT examples. An agent of God is actually referred to as God, or the Lord himself. In Genesis 31:11-13 Jacobs said to his wives, "'The angel' of God 'said' to me in a dream 'I am the God' of Bethel." Here is an angel speaking as though he was God Himself. He speaks in the first person: "I am the God of Bethel." Jacob was comfortable with this concept of agency.

In the next chapter, Jacob wrestled with "a man" until dawn, but he says he had "seen God face to face" (Gen 32:24-30). So was at this time when God appear to Jacob as a man? Perhaps as some have suggested it was actually the Lord Jesus himself, as the second member of the triune God, who wrestled with Jacob.

Not at all according to Hosea 12:3-4 which says, "As a man he [Jacob] struggled with God; he struggled with "the angel" and overcame him. So the one who is called both "a man" and "God" in Genesis is identified as an angel in Hosea. This is a perfect example of Jewish agency where the agent is considered as the principal.

There is another instance of agency in Exodus 7. God tells Moses he will make him "God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet" (Exodus 7:1). Moses is to stand before the king of Egypt with the full authority and backing of heaven itself. Then God says, By this you shall know that I am the LORD: behold, I will strike the water that is in the Nile with the staff that is in "My hand", and it shall be turned to blood" (v.17). But observe carefully that just two verses later the LORD says to Moses, "Say to Aaron, take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt that they may become blood" (v.19). God says He Himself will strike the waters with the staff in His own hand. Yet, it was Aaron's hand that actually held the rod. Aaron is standing as God's agent in the very place of God himself. There is identification of the agent with his Principle. In Biblical terms, Moses and Aaron are "God" (Heb. elohim) to Pharaoh!

Sometimes this concept of agency has caused the translators of our Bible difficulties. The Hebrew word for "God"(elohim) has a wide range of meanings. Depending on context, it can mean the Supreme Deity, or "a god" or "gods" or even "angels" or human "judges." This difficulty is reflected in verses like Exodus 21:6

The KJV reads "Then his master shall bring him unto the judges;"
The NIV reads "then his master must take him before the judges."
But
The NASB reads "then his master shall bring him to God"
So too the RSV "then his master shall bring him to God"

Clearly, because the judges of Israel represented God as His agents, they are called "God," elohim. As the slave gave his vow before these representatives of God, he was in fact making a binding vow before Jehovah. The agents were as God.

Another example that we have time for in this brief overview, is in Judges 6:11-22. "The angel of the LORD came and sat under the oak tree while Gideon was threshing wheat". As 'the angel of the LORD appeared to him,' he greeted Gideon with the words, "The LORD is with you, O valiant warrior." We can hear Gideon's disbelief when he says to the angel, "Oh my lord, if the LORD is with us, why then has all this happened to us?" Now notice a change in the text at Judges 6:14: "And the LORD looked at him and said, 'Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have not I sent you?" At this point Gideon murmurs and throws up excuses as to why he could not rescue Israel from their enemies. "But the LORD said to him, 'Surely I will be with you, and you shall defeat Midian as one man.'" Notice how the angel who is speaking on God's behalf actually uses the first person personal pronoun. And the text clearly says that when the angel looked at Gideon it was God himself who looked at him: And the LORD looked at him." Gideon is not confused regarding who he is looking at or who is speaking to him. For as "the angel of the LORD vanished from his site," he exclaimed, "I have seen the angel of the LORD face-to-face." (V.22). We know that the angel of the LORD is the agent and not literally God, because the Scriptures are absolutely clear that no one has ever seen God himself (John 1:18; 1 Tim 6:16; 1 John 4:12). Many scholars have failed to take this very Hebrew way of looking at things into account. They have literally identified the angel of the LORD with God Himself. All confusion is dissipated when we understand the Jewish law of agency: "a person's agent is regarded as the person himself."

There is one last very clear OT example of Hebrew Principle of Agency. It comes from Deuteronomy 29. Moses summons all of Israel and says to them, "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders" (v.2-3).

Moses continues to recite for the people all that God has done for them. But notice that in verse 6, while still reciting all God's wonders, Moses suddenly changes to the first person and says, "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God." It is obvious that God himself is not personally speaking to the people. Moses is preaching. But Moses as the agent of God can speak as though he is the Lord himself. What is happening here? God is speaking through His man, His appointed representative. Therefore, he can move from speaking in the third person, "the LORD did this and that for you" to the first person: "I am the LORD your God doing this and that."

Knowing this principle helps us with other apparent difficulties, even seeming contradictions through the Scriptures. Lets look at one New Testament example. The story that has created a problem to many minds is the one concerning the healing of the Centurion's servant. In Matthew's account (Matt 8:5-13), it is the Centurion himself who comes to Jesus and begs him to heal his servant. The Centurion himself says, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering great pain" (v.6).

However, the parallel account in Luke (Luke 7:1-10) states that the Centurion did not personally go and speak to Jesus. He actually sent or commissioned as his agents "some Jewish elders." These Jewish elders pleaded with Jesus on behalf of the Centurion saying, "He is worthy for you to grant this to him; for he loves our nation, and it was he who built us our synagogue" (v.4-5)

So who actually went to Jesus here? Did these gospel writers get confused? Are the detractors perhaps right to say that the Bible is full of errors and contradictions? Not at all! The difficulty is cleared up when we understand the Hebrew mind behind these Scriptures. The answer to who actually stood before Jesus is the elders. They had been sent by the Centurion. Matthew in typical Hebrew idiom has the Centurion himself there and speaking in the first person before Jesus. The agent is as the principal himself.

Jesus claimed to represent God like no other before or after him. He claimed to be the unique spokesman for God his Father and to speak the ultimate words of God. He claimed to act in total accord and harmony with God like no other. He claimed to be the Son of God, the Christ or Messiah, and the agent of the Father. The NT claims that he who sees Jesus sees the Father. He who hears Jesus the Son hears the words of God Himself.

The New Testament puts this theory about the angel of the Lord being Jesus in his preexistence to rest in Hebrews 1: "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son" (v 1-2).
So, the Son of God "did not speak" in the Old Testament days! Back in those days God spoke in various ways and only in "portions," whether by vision or by prophet or by angel. It is only since Jesus Christ was brought into existence at birth and appeared "in these last days" that we have heard God speak "in his Son." This is axiomatic. Jesus Christ was not God's messenger before his appearance as a man, born of Mary in history. Look at the scriptures:

Act 7:53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,


Now let's review one last example and look at Exodus 23:20-23. Notice 'my name is in him!' (agency)

"Behold, I send an angel before thee, to keep thee by the way ... Take ye heed of him, and hearken unto his voice; provoke him not (be not rebellious against him): for he will not pardon your transgression; for my name is in him" "But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. "For My angel will go before you… (Exodus 23:20-23).

In this passage the angel was to be for Israel in the place of God; he was to speak God's words, and judge them. In fact the angel expressed God's name; he was God for them. Now if this was true of an angel of the Lord, how much more of the Son of God himself? Hence these sayings:

"This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent ... I (Jesus) have manifested thy name unto (the disciples) ... Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one" (John 17:3,6,11).

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

Jesus, then, enjoyed a unity of mind and Spirit with the Father, so that he could say, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). For the disciples Jesus was in the place of God; he spoke God's words, proclaimed God's truth, and pronounced His judgements.

Hebrews 1:1 makes more sense now:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world (ages).

[The Net bible adds… The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb_11:3 for the same usage.]

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds (ages) were prepared by the word (ρημα G4487) of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Jesus had every right to claim to be God because God was in Him doing His works.

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).


Paul

Your training is complete... Your welcome too! ;)
Paul
 

Apple7

New member
There is no help for you friend. You just do not want truth.

Jesus is calling his father the only God, Apple it is not I that has the reading problem.


No, pops....He is not.

Here is yet another verse that utilizes the same phraseology mandating that Jesus is the true God...


οιδαμεν δε οτι ο υιος του θεου ηκει και δεδωκεν ημιν διανοιαν ινα γινωσκομεν τον αληθινον και εσμεν εν τω αληθινω εν τω υιω αυτου ιησου χριστω ουτος εστιν ο αληθινος θεος και ζωη αιωνιος

oidamen de hoti ho huios tou theou hēkei kai dedōken hēmin dianoian hina ginōskōmen ton alēthinon kai esmen en tō huiō autou Iēsou Christō houtos estin ho alēthinos theos kai zōē aiōnios

And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life eternal. (1 John 5.20)




If you were even remotely familiar with Greek (which no uni is!), then you would already be cognizant that there are absolutely no grammatical reasons at all for denying that αληθινον θεον refers to Jesus Christ.
 

Apple7

New member
That's easy[/B]! Trinitarians like you make up the fable that Jesus was the Father[/U]! You ignore the Fact that Jesus was Sent by the Father. God can not be sent ! Thus the One true God sent his begotten son as scripture declares!

No, Paul.

This is not what the Trinity teaches...no wonder you are so confused.

However, since you have taken this stance, now you must scripturally prove it to us...good luck with that...:cool:




BTY, Unlike you... I don't need a concordance to read Greek!

Errr...yeah...you have already amply demonstrated that for us...:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Jesus was still in the form of a servant when He said that his Father was the only true God. But He was exalted to His former status and thus John says that Jesus Christ is the true God.

20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

It says that "He" (Jesus Christ) is the "true God and eternal life." John said that Christ is the "eternal ife" (1 John 1:1-2).

Hi Wile, Yes Jesus was in the form of a servant, the same position he had before the world was. One earth he was a man, before that he was a highly created spiritual being. He was a FORM or IMAGE of his God. God was pleased that he was the image of himself. BUT HE WAS NOT GOD. How do I know, Jesus says that HE (Jesus) has a God, and he tells us that his Father is the ONLY God. Now what does that tell you?

John 1 must be restudied, especially the word "logos", try using the words "God's plan" in its place and see what it says.

My thoughts friend, the trinity just does not make a sense to me and no body can explane it. Why? Because its not true.

Peqce
 

Apple7

New member
Hi Wile, Yes Jesus was in the form of a servant, the same position he had before the world was. One earth he was a man, before that he was a highly created spiritual being. He was a FORM or IMAGE of his God. God was pleased that he was the image of himself. BUT HE WAS NOT GOD. How do I know, Jesus says that HE (Jesus) has a God, and he tells us that his Father is the ONLY God. Now what does that tell you?

What Greek words are you using to support that Jesus' deity was created, pops?
 

keypurr

Well-known member
That is all still "trying to figure it out" language.

We don't have to 'figure it all out.' Shoot, I don't have the brain for it and I'm fairly intelligent but that is precisely what the triune position is: Just read it and believe it, when or until God makes it all perfectly clear.

Glad your feeling better Lon.

But I disagree that we should just accept everything we have be taught by the church. They are just men alike you and me. If God was triune he would have said so in a plain and simple manner. He did not. Man was made with a mind to think and understand, why would you just swollow everything without question?

To say Jesus is less than God is literally throwing out scripture. Literally. You can just cut these verses out because they don't matter at all to one's logical thinking:

John 1:1 The Logos is both with and was God. How can you answer something like that? It can't be answered as far as I'm concerned.

Jesus was not sent as God, he was sent as God's son. He was a man, a prophet. The OT tells you that. No one is equal to the allmighty God Lon.

Just leave it be and believe it, or don't? Why must man be the one to think he can answer for God here?

No one is trying to answer for God, we are just trying to understand him and his son. He did not consult with me when he created everything.

Philippians 2:6
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

I guess you like the KJV, I use them all even though I was brought up with the KJV. Here are a few that differ, I have more if needed. The point I wish to bring out is that folks see things differently.

(NIV) Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(NASB) who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Same thing here. We are told Christ is both God and with God. In fact, this scripture paints it incredibly clear with "form." It means "Literally God, in a different form." It is another one of those verses of being both with and is God at the same time (as if we were making it up from John 1:1)? Why do we, as mere men need to feel it is our job to explain our God? What makes us think we have the capacity to explain infinite things as mere finite creations when the idea given is more than apparently beyond us?

God and with God, I agree to the with part.

The fact that he is a FORM of GOD to me says that he is a created spiritual being who is Godlike. The FORM or IMAGE is not the same as the real thing. It certainly is questionable to me Lon. See, I am not like you, I do question all, and I ask could this or that be what it means?

Why does anybody think they can explain this idea? I would be skeptical if Einstein tried to do it. Why would anybody venture past God's word to say Jesus isn't God when it is clear that He is somehow both with and is God. I mean, no, it isn't clear, but this thing that is hard to figure out is at least given clearly.

You say WHY, I say WHY NOT.

It is like me getting a dump truck of marbles and trying to put them into a mayonaise jar, all of them. No we don't know why we were given a dump truck load of marbles and then only a small jar. God doesn't make mistakes so we can sit on the curb throw marbles or think we know for sure that they are all going to fit in that jar when it is very clear they are not. How can Jesus be both God and with God? I don't know. I will wait for my answer, that is the triune stance: There is an answer. I've only got a piece of the big picture at the moment.

I do not walk away from puzzles Lon, I try to do them. We have vastly different backgrounds. Your much more educated that I. But the years I have been reading just might have given me something you have not been exposed to. That is why I might question something you do not. I know that is a two way street too. But I do know that there is ONE GOD and I do know that Jesus has a God. So that rules out equality. Jesus is our Lord ONLY because HIS GOD made him Lord of ALL.

If you can understand that, it may open your mind to some of my crazy thoughts.

Peace
 

Pierac

New member
No, Paul.

This is not what the Trinity teaches...no wonder you are so confused.

However, since you have taken this stance, now you must scripturally prove it to us...good luck with that...:cool:
Errr...yeah...you have already amply demonstrated that for us...:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Thank you for pointing out that Scripture does not support this view! This is what I have been teaching, and then spanking you with for the past week! :rolleyes:

WHO IS JESUS


Jesus is the Son Of God.

Jesus is the Prophesied Messiah.

Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

Jesus is our brother.

Jesus is our role model.

Jesus is also our mediator with God.

Jesus is the Messiah, the king of Israel. He is the anointed one of God. God has anointed Jesus with His spirit and this is how God is with us. It is God working through Jesus. God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus. The best definition of Jesus is given by Peter in Acts 2:22 and Acts 10:38:

"Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."

WHO JESUS IS NOT

Jesus is not GOD.

1 Corinthians 8: 6 – "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father."
John 17: 3 – "Now this eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 21: 22 – "I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple."

Let's read more scripture as you requested!

Son of God


God Himself refers to Jesus as His Son: Mt 2: 15, 3:17, 17: 5, Mk 1: 11, 9: 7, Lk 9: 35

Jesus says that he is the Son of God: Mt 26: 63, Lk 22: 70, Jn 5: 25, 10: 36, 19: 7

The angel Gabriel says Jesus is the Son of God: Luke 1: 35

Peter says that Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 16: 16

John the Apostle says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 20: 31, 1 Jn 3: 23, 4: 15, 5:5

All the Apostles say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 14: 33, Jn 6: 69

John the Baptist says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 34

John Mark says Jesus is the Son of God: Mk 1: 1

Paul says Jesus is the Son of God: Acts 9: 20, Rom 1: 4, 1 Cor 1: 9, 2 Cor 1:19, Gal 2: 20, Heb 4: 14

Nathanael says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 49

Demons say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 8: 29, Mk 3: 11, 5: 7, Lk 4: 41, 8: 28

The Centurion says Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 27: 54, Mk 15: 39



Now who in your scriptures says: God the Son

The answer! Nobody.

Once again your spanking is complete! You should listen to your private messages telling you to shut up... from your very own Trinitarians! The more emotional you get the easier you are to spank like a little child! :chuckle:

Paul
 

keypurr

Well-known member
What Greek words are you using to support that Jesus' deity was created, pops?

First I did not say his deity was created, you did.

Second, I question if he has deity.

Third, if you had been reading my past posts you would not have asked what support I have for my thoughts.

But I will ask you, what is the difference between FORM and GOD?

Why does Jesus have a GOD?

Why did he not know when he would return, or who will sit next to him in heaven?

Who did he pray to?

Who raised him?

How could he die if he was God?

Do you want the answers to these questions Apple7?
 

Apple7

New member
Thank you for pointing out that Scripture does not support this view! This is what I have been teaching, and then spanking you with for the past week! :rolleyes:

Thinking that the Father is the Son is a unitarian strawman.

However...feel free to show scripture 'supporting' your assertion...good luck.




WHO IS JESUS


Jesus is the Son Of God.

Jesus is the Prophesied Messiah.

Jesus is our Lord and Savior.

Jesus is our brother.

Jesus is our role model.

Jesus is also our mediator with God.

Jesus is the Messiah, the king of Israel. He is the anointed one of God. God has anointed Jesus with His spirit and this is how God is with us. It is God working through Jesus. God did not come AS Jesus, He came IN Jesus. The best definition of Jesus is given by Peter in Acts 2:22 and Acts 10:38:

"Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders and signs, which God worked through him in your midst."

"How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power. He went about doing good and healing all those oppressed by the devil, for God was with him."


Relate this to your concept of the Trinity.







WHO JESUS IS NOT

Jesus is not GOD.

1 Corinthians 8: 6 – "Yet for us there is but one God, the Father."
John 17: 3 – "Now this eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 21: 22 "I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple."


Why are Theos and The Lamb worshiped as one God in Revelation?

Is taking scripture out of context the only way that you can make unitarianism work, Paul?





Let's read more scripture as you requested!

Son of God


God Himself refers to Jesus as His Son: Mt 2: 15, 3:17, 17: 5, Mk 1: 11, 9: 7, Lk 9: 35

Jesus says that he is the Son of God: Mt 26: 63, Lk 22: 70, Jn 5: 25, 10: 36, 19: 7

The angel Gabriel says Jesus is the Son of God: Luke 1: 35

Peter says that Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 16: 16

John the Apostle says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 20: 31, 1 Jn 3: 23, 4: 15, 5:5

All the Apostles say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 14: 33, Jn 6: 69

John the Baptist says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 34

John Mark says Jesus is the Son of God: Mk 1: 1

Paul says Jesus is the Son of God: Acts 9: 20, Rom 1: 4, 1 Cor 1: 9, 2 Cor 1:19, Gal 2: 20, Heb 4: 14

Nathanael says Jesus is the Son of God: Jn 1: 49

Demons say Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 8: 29, Mk 3: 11, 5: 7, Lk 4: 41, 8: 28

The Centurion says Jesus is the Son of God: Mt 27: 54, Mk 15: 39


Detail to us exactly how any of these verses supposedly thwarts the Trinity.

Good luck on that one, Paul....:yoshi:
 

Apple7

New member
First I did not say his deity was created, you did.

How did an ordinary man create the Universe, then?





Second, I question if he has deity.

The prophets did not.




Third, if you had been reading my past posts you would not have asked what support I have for my thoughts.

That's just it pops, you don't have any support for your posts...its just raw assertions...

No Greek.

No exegesis.

Nothing.






But I will ask you, what is the difference between FORM and GOD?

Elaborate.




Why does Jesus have a GOD?

He is the God-man.

What part of Him had a God?

Now...pretend you were not answered.......again.....





Why did he not know when he would return, or who will sit next to him in heaven?

Scripture?



Who did he pray to?

God the Father.




Who raised him?

The Trinity.





How could he die if he was God?

His flesh died.




Do you want the answers to these questions Apple7?


We have already been over each of these numerous times...however, you keep forgetting to read the replies.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
How did an ordinary man create the Universe, then?
Where did I say an ordinary man created anything?

You just proved again how dumb you are. You inject words where you want. Just like you do with your Greek Scripture.
 

Lon

Well-known member
I just correct theirs/yours tradition of men... and I do it very well!
I know you 'think' that. I'm a teacher, I get this same grandiose delusion from a lot of kids that think exactly this. You'll eventually grow up (or not). No skin off my nose. It all pans out at grade-report time.
That's what's why I piss you off so bad! Just like Jesus did the Pharisees! So much so they wanted to kill him! Feel familiar? :think:
Pharisee? You don't even know what/who they are. No it doesn't feel familiar. If you were in my league (and forgive me for the boast), you'd not say such things. They are really amatuer hour at TOL, kinds of posts.

You have shown yourself not much for me even to think about.
You are 1) too worldly with your mouth
2) not too great at English and nowhere near even an inkling of adept at any foreign language (you know, kind of necessary for most of our discussions)
3) pretty much full of teen-angst (whether you should have grown out of it by now or not)
4) have horrible reading comprehension (just thinking of all the times you've simply not gotten it, and quite obviously so)
5) nobody even close to who I'd want to take my godly or spiritual advise 6) unqualified, by Jesus or anybody else you'd care to ask credentials from (He is ashamed of your flesh getting in the way)
7) shall I continue?
You really need to get over yourself. This post is a kindness in acknowledging your pretentious existence in this thread.

I get paid for these kinds of report cards. You don't always get to read your school files but I hope this helps. Give it to your mother/father/grandma and ask them to go over it with you step by step. It'll hurt but you'll be better off for it. You are welcome for my considerable expertise and time that will not be extended to this extent in the future.

In Him

-Lon
 

Lon

Well-known member
Glad your feeling better Lon.
Still sick, but at least the bronchitus part is quickly going away. Now it is just an intense sting in between the eyes.


But I disagree that we should just accept everything we have be taught by the church. They are just men alike you and me. If God was triune he would have said so in a plain and simple manner. He did not. Man was made with a mind to think and understand, why would you just swollow everything without question?
No, this is my own study. I'm telling you what I read. The only reason I am triune is because what I came to aligns with them (not the other way around).

Jesus was not sent as God, he was sent as God's son. He was a man, a prophet. The OT tells you that. No one is equal to the allmighty God Lon.
First of all, no. I didn't give you what I 'think' I gave you what it says. We can discuss things after that, but I feel like you are jumping past me and missing the crucial and imperative part.


No one is trying to answer for God, we are just trying to understand him and his son. He did not consult with me when he created everything.
Exactly. Good. Now notice where we left the text just above? If we leave the text, it is just you and me with nothing to hold on to. Long after you and I are gone, the text will still be there for the next generation to talk about. His word stands.

I guess you like the KJV, I use them all even though I was brought up with the KJV. Here are a few that differ, I have more if needed. The point I wish to bring out is that folks see things differently.
I like all of them. I used the KJV because the term for morphe was given as 'form.' It doesn't matter as long as you understand what the word has to mean. I can't mean anything else other than "the same exact thing in a different shape or appearance."

(NIV) Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
(NASB) who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
See? Both of these too: "The exact thing in a different shape."


God and with God, I agree to the with part.
Good.
The fact that he is a FORM of GOD to me says that he is a created spiritual being who is Godlike.
No, I'm saying it literally can't be saying that. It means exactly "Same being/different shape."
The FORM or IMAGE is not the same as the real thing. It certainly is questionable to me Lon. See, I am not like you, I do question all, and I ask could this or that be what it means?
I'm saying "it cannot" mean anything else. It means what it means.


You say WHY, I say WHY NOT.
Because it is only a guess? Guesses are like gambling. We shouldn't do it because we are probably going to be wrong. I don't like guesses at all where God is concerned. Not only that, but we are told both was and was with. It is very plain somehow that Jesus is one form of God and yet is not the Father from this passage. In a sense, you are agreeing with me, but then are trying to explain it in a way that the text doesn't allow.

I do not walk away from puzzles Lon, I try to do them. We have vastly different backgrounds. Your much more educated that I. But the years I have been reading just might have given me something you have not been exposed to. That is why I might question something you do not. I know that is a two way street too. But I do know that there is ONE GOD and I do know that Jesus has a God. So that rules out equality. Jesus is our Lord ONLY because HIS GOD made him Lord of ALL.
Jesus has a father. Can you show me a scripture where Jesus says He has a god?
If you can understand that, it may open your mind to some of my crazy thoughts.
Peace
I don't want crazy thought, I want His thought.
 

Apple7

New member
Where did I say an ordinary man created anything?

So then Jesus must be deity to have created the Universe.

Make up your mind.





You just proved again how dumb you are. You inject words where you want. Just like you do with your Greek Scripture.

You don't know any Greek, pops, remember....so, once again, you have no way to prove your meritless assertion.

Just another in a very, very long line of meritless uni-assertions...
 

OneGodInChrist

New member
This is good but then leans toward modalism (the opposite). Strike the balance where it needs to be without dangerous speculating. The pendulum of scripture points to one God on one side, and Son speaking with Father and Spirit on the other.

I don't feel that I have gone too far, but see it as the Bible teaches it. We must always remember that the apostles were coming out of the Old Testament and into the new and not vise versa. They were Old Testament Jews that simplt believed thst God was absolutely One Deu. 6:4

When they taught and believed that Jesus was God it was a simple concept..that Jesus was the Son of God, God of the Old Testament (the Father) manifest in flesh as the Son (fully God and fully man)

God in the Old Testament (the Father) was a Spirit. He was also a HOLY Spirit, hence, the HOLY SPIRIT. They are one and the same. Thats why even though the Holy Ghost was the one who over shadowed Mary, Jesus was called the SON OF GOD. Because the Father and the Spirit are one and the same.

When God became flesh however, He became the Son of God. He became somethimg that He never was before, yet didn't cease being what He alwaysnwas prior, the eternal, omniprsent Spirt (the Father)

The Bible teaches that Jesus was the Son of God, but does not teach that He was God the Son. God the Son is a doctrine that was later developed by Church creeds, much like the eternal Sonship, which was also a later development; even church history testifies to it.

I also believ that there are no contradiction in baptism in Math. 28:19 and the fact that they baptized in the name of Jesus in the book of Acts. I believe the the apostles knew that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was Jesus, and therefore they obeyed His command in Acts 2:38 when they baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

God bless
When this God became flesh however, all tye fulness of God
 

Apple7

New member
I don't feel that I have gone too far, but see it as the Bible teaches it. We must always remember that the apostles were coming out of the Old Testament and into the new and not vise versa. They were Old Testament Jews that simplt believed thst God was absolutely One Deu. 6:4

When they taught and believed that Jesus was God it was a simple concept..that Jesus was the Son of God, God of the Old Testament (the Father) manifest in flesh as the Son (fully God and fully man)

God in the Old Testament (the Father) was a Spirit. He was also a HOLY Spirit, hence, the HOLY SPIRIT. They are one and the same. Thats why even though the Holy Ghost was the one who over shadowed Mary, Jesus was called the SON OF GOD. Because the Father and the Spirit are one and the same.

When God became flesh however, He became the Son of God. He became somethimg that He never was before, yet didn't cease being what He alwaysnwas prior, the eternal, omniprsent Spirt (the Father)

The Bible teaches that Jesus was the Son of God, but does not teach that He was God the Son. God the Son is a doctrine that was later developed by Church creeds, much like the eternal Sonship, which was also a later development; even church history testifies to it.

I also believ that there are no contradiction in baptism in Math. 28:19 and the fact that they baptized in the name of Jesus in the book of Acts. I believe the the apostles knew that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost was Jesus, and therefore they obeyed His command in Acts 2:38 when they baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

God bless
When this God became flesh however, all tye fulness of God


God the Son manifested Himself in the flesh all throughout the OT....where have you been, brother?

Perhaps you should study-up on Malek Yahweh and tell us why He was called Yahweh; was worshipped as Yahweh, and was offered animal sacrifices!

The Triune Creator is not only limited to the NT....as the OT clearly informs the reader.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
So then Jesus must be deity to have created the Universe.

Make up your mind.







You don't know any Greek, pops, remember....so, once again, you have no way to prove your meritless assertion.

Just another in a very, very long line of meritless uni-assertions...

You missed the point Apple, God created THROUGH Jesus, he performed miracles THROUGH Jesus. Power was given to Jesus by his God. Does that mean that Jesus has deity???? Where do we draw the line of what is Deity?

Open up your mind friend, you and I both have a lot to learn.
 

Apple7

New member
You missed the point Apple, God created THROUGH Jesus, he performed miracles THROUGH Jesus. Power was given to Jesus by his God. Does that mean that Jesus has deity???? Where do we draw the line of what is Deity?

Open up your mind friend, you and I both have a lot to learn.


Look how silly you sound, pops.

In your demented mind, Jesus was not deity at all, and yet through Jesus a hundred billion trillion galaxies (that we know of) came into being and were formed. But…according to you, Jesus had nothing to do with it…according to you, God the Father had to first create Jesus so that He could then have assistance in creating the entire Universe because God the Father needed help in this regard.

You purposefully reduce-down an infinite Creator to requiring help of creation, in creating.

Nice job pops!
 
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