ECT Our triune God

Soror1

New member
Please do not misrepresent my views. I said that the Lord Jesus is both Man and God from all eternity. And that is the only truth which can be reconciled to what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).​

You are seemingly unable to tease out the implications of your position. Man is a creation. Man didn't exist in eternity, man exists because God created Him.

You throw your reason to the wind and say that originally He had only one nature and then when he acquired another nature He did not change at all.

According to your ideas the Lord Jesus with one nature is exactly the same Lord Jesus with two natures!

Why are you avoiding my question?

"It is written in the Bible that "the Word was made flesh". Did the Word change when this happened?"

I answered that. I said that the "inner man" of the Man Jesus remained when He became incarnate.

You are saying this uncreated inner man of the Man Jesus remained when He became incarnate. So He either had two (if He is going to redeem the full created human man), or He only retained the uncreated inner man, didn't redeem the full human man, can't function as our High Priest--indeed wasn't a full human man.

Pick your poison, Jerry!
 

Soror1

New member
...
Since God knows the end before the beginning, the manhood of the Incarnate Christ existed "before" it came into existence...

What Jerry is saying, if he ultimately didn't admit to some kind of hybrid divine-man...thing is platonism. That would be the only rational thing that would begin to make sense of what he's trying to say.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Dead men walkin'...

"Men" nonetheless.

Hardly - Is your grandfather's corpse a man?

You have fallen for the nonsense put out by the Calvinists:

I wouldn't know -

What I know is that Christ is the second man,

Because Paul said so...

And that He was not the first man

Because YOU said so...

Can you count from one to two?

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).​

According to the Calvinists the "guilt" and "death in sin" of the sins of Adam and Eve was imputed to all of their posterity, and their posterity includes their sons Cain and Abel. So the Calvinists teach that the sons are guilty of their fathers sins despite the fact God will do no such thing, as witnessed by the following passage:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son" (Ezek.18:20; NIV).

What is said here declares in no uncertain terms that children do not bear the responsibility for the sins of their parents. It is also a fact that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).​

"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).​

From all of this we can understand that a person does not emerge from the womb in a state described as being spiritually dead. If a person is born spirtually dead as a result of Adam's sin then it would be impossible for him to die spiritually as a result of his own sin. That is because a person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. The very definition of "death" demands that a person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually: "the end of life" (Merriam-Webster.com.).

The point is that Adam was the first man...

And that Christ is the second man, Son of God...

So are you saying that no one can be saved unless they are baptized with water?

Are you saying we are NOT baptized into Christ, like Paul was?

Why did Paul and those with him not know that?:

Why did Ananias baptize Paul?

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

To believe is to get baptized into Christ.

You get deeper and deeper into error when you try to prove that the Lord Jesus was the second man, that there were no other men between Adam and the Lord Jesus.

You argument is with Paul who wrote:

1 Corinthians 15:45

So also it is written,
"The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL."
The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

If you will not hear Paul, I am not surprised you cannot hear anyone else...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Please do not misrepresent my views. I said that the Lord Jesus is both Man and God from all eternity. And that is the only truth which can be reconciled to what is said about the Lord Jesus here:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).​

You throw your reason to the wind and say that originally He had only one nature and then when he acquired another nature He did not change at all.

According to your ideas the Lord Jesus with one nature is exactly the same Lord Jesus with two natures!

You don't get to just find one sentence in the Bible that you cqan understand and then make the whole rest of the Bible conform to your understanding of that one sentence...

I answered that. I said that the "inner man" of the Man Jesus remained when He became incarnate.

Then the Son of Man is uncreated.

And therefore so is man...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
PPS said:
It's the royal signet ring of God,
with His Logos stamping His hypostasis into the wax of creation as the Son.
Same hypostasis.

But the Hypostasis of the Son/Logos is the "wax impress" of that of the Father...

The wax-impress then becoming in the Son the stamp that is then "wax-impressed" upon man in Him...

And only then through His Body and Blood upon you and me...

The Stamp is not the impress, but the impress, in its turn, can become the stamp for an additional impress, and so forth...

This all sounds eerily Platonic...

To call the Hypostasis of the Son the SAME as that of the Father, then you must call the Stamp the Wax...

Arsenios
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
The oddest thing is...

What Jerry's saying is an odd jacked-up interpretational glimpse of multi-phenomenality.

Since God knows the end before the beginning, the manhood of the Incarnate Christ existed "before" it came into existence.


Yes I also saw Jerry's lack of understanding that all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.




Hebrews 4:3 KJV


3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said , As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


After all of this, I have come to the conclusion that God has no hypostasis.

Nor does he know that dude.

Just more Greek foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1:23 KJV


23 But we preach Christ crucified , unto the Jews a stumblingblock , and unto the Greeks foolishness;


1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV


21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .




1 Corinthians 1:25 KJV


25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
But the Hypostasis of the Son/Logos is the "wax impress" of that of the Father...

No. You have to have an individuated hypostasis because you don't and can't distinguish uncreated phenomenon from created phenomenon.

The wax-impress then becoming in the Son the stamp that is then "wax-impressed" upon man in Him...

The impress is the phenomenon upon the noumenon, not one hypostasis upon another (alleged) hypostasis.

And only then through His Body and Blood upon you and me...

The Stamp is not the impress, but the impress, in its turn, can become the stamp for an additional impress, and so forth...

This all sounds eerily Platonic...

Nope. Platonism is uni-phenomenal, too. And I don't represent God as an impersonal non-existent "One" who created existence. Orthodoxy is what emulates Platonism, and has been criticized for that over the centuries.

To call the Hypostasis of the Son the SAME as that of the Father, then you must call the Stamp the Wax...

Arsenios

Nope. That's uni-phenomenal fallacy.

The uncreated phenomenon impressed the uncreated noumenon to re-present God's singular hypostasis in created phenomenon.

You don't get to project the uni-phenomenality of your one-colored side upon the Rubik's Cube just because you can't see anything but that side.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Because I already know them.

You are not understanding (or acknowledging) that both "son of man" and "son of god" have more than one meaning. They are homonyms.

Yes, but the term "Son of Man" never denotes the meaning of "God." That is what you have never proved despite your best efforts.

He is The Son of Man of Daniel.

Yes, and nothing said in Daniel about the "Son of Man" in that book indicates that that term means "God." You said:

Many others--those with authority to do something about it--understood it as a claim to the pre-existent deity of Daniel

Here is one of the verses which you cited from Daniel:

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed" (Dan.7:13-14).​

This refers to Christ ruling from the Throne of David and from what Peter says it is clear that the term "Son of Man" at Daniel 7:13 is referring to the Lord Jesus ruling as Man:

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne" (Acts 2:29-30).​

This can only be referring to the Lord Jesus Christ sitting on the throne of David as "Man."

And these words of the LORD also confirm that fact:

"The Lord hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne" (Ps.132:11).​

So the words "Son of Man" as in "one like the Son of Man" in Daniel had nothing to do with the Lord Jesus' pre-existent deity, as you say here:

Many others--those with authority to do something about it--understood it as a claim to the pre-existent deity of Daniel

Over and over you have been shown that when the Lord Jesus used the term "Son of Man" He was speaking of His humanity and was not claiming to be God.

But of course you have a motive for trying to make His use of the term "Son of Man" to be claiming to be God and that reason can be found in these two verses:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (Jn.3:13).​

It was as Man that the Lord Jesus came down from heaven. That means that He was Man before He was born of Mary.And this verse teaches practically the same thing:

"What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (Jn.6:62).​

The Lord Jesus was in heaven as Man before He came down to earth and was born of Mary.

Despite all these facts you cling with all your strength to the indefensible idea that the Lord Jesus originally had only one nature and then when He acquired another nature He did not change.

Somehow you are able to trick your mind into believing that the Lord Jesus with one nature is the same exact Jesus with two natures!
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You don't get to just find one sentence in the Bible that you cqan understand and then make the whole rest of the Bible conform to your understanding of that one sentence...

Either what is said here is true or it isn't:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Heb.13:8).​

Do you believe that it is true?

The OT also reveals the same truth about the Lord Jesus:

"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end" (Ps.102:25-27).​

Your ideas defy common sense. According to your ideas the Lord Jesus originally had but one nature and then He acquired another nature He remained the same.
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Yes I also saw Jerry's lack of understanding that all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 KJV


3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said , As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


After all of this, I have come to the conclusion that God has no hypostasis.

Nor does he know that dude.

Just more Greek foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1:23 KJV

23 But we preach Christ crucified , unto the Jews a stumblingblock , and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe .

1 Corinthians 1:25 KJV

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Hebrews 1:3. The Son is the express image of God's hypostasis.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yes I also saw Jerry's lack of understanding that all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 4:3 KJV

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said , As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I have the same understanding that is found in the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

"Although God had finished His works of creation and entered on His rest from creation long before Moses' time, yet under that leader of Israel another rest was promised, which most fell short of through unbelief."

If Hebrews 4:3 was referring to the works which the Lord finished in the eternal state, then the verse would not say "finished from the foundation of the world."

Instead,it would read, "finished before the foundation of the world."
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
The impress is the phenomenon upon the noumenon,
not one hypostasis upon another (alleged) hypostasis.

According to Hebrews 1:3 the Son is the exact impress of God's hypostasis. (χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου)

You are saying that the hypostasis of the Son is that of the Father, and this scripture calls it instead an exact impress... And as well, there seems to be a co-equivalence of the terms "Son" and "hypostasis", or at least "Son" and "exact impress"...

The uncreated phenomenon impressed the uncreated noumenon to re-present God's singular hypostasis in created phenomenon.

I hate calling God "uncreated phenomenon"... And His Uncreated "inner" Self uncreated noumenon, which phenomenal thought received an exact impress from the phenomenon which was thinking it, and voila, we have the Son, being thrust into creation at the onset.

God is a Person, and not "uncreated phenomenon impressing its own noumena with its hypostatic stamp..."

Arsenios
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
According to Hebrews 1:3 the Son is the exact impress of God's hypostasis. (χαρακτηρ της υποστασεως αυτου)

You are saying that the hypostasis of the Son

I'm not saying this, to begin. Before you even start, you have the Son as an individuated hypostasis and trying to caricature everything I say to that.

I's saying nothing about a hypostasis of the Son. Just as scripture says, I'm speaking of God's singular hypostasis and the express image OF that hypostasis in the context of multi-phenomenality. You're still looking at one side of the Rubik's Cube.

is that of the Father, and this scripture calls it instead an exact impress...

Scripture says nothing whatsoever about a Son-hypostasis being the express image. It says the Son is the express image OF His hypostasis, with no mention (there or ANYWHERE ELSE) in scripture of another individuated hypostasis in ANY context.

And as well, there seems to be a co-equivalence of the terms "Son" and "hypostasis", or at least "Son" and "exact impress"...

The latter. DEFINITELY not the former.

And you just said "it seems". That would be phaino. So God is phenomenon and He's uncreated.

I hate calling God "uncreated phenomenon"...

Not even fractionally as much as I hate hypostasis being called "person" and/or the fallacious uni-phenomenal multiplication of God's singular hypostasis into three.

And His Uncreated "inner" Self uncreated noumenon, which phenomenal thought received an exact impress from the phenomenon which was thinking it, and voila, we have the Son, being thrust into creation at the onset.

Not really.

God is a Person, and not "uncreated phenomenon impressing its own noumena with its hypostatic stamp..."

Arsenios

Sigh. I don't know why you would so despise the eternal generation/begottenness of the Son from the bosom of the Father, and Him creating heaven AND the cosmos.

I also don't know why you'd accept or reject ANY view about pre-creation, since you insist it's all unknowable and yet say all sorts of things about it.
 

1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
I have the same understanding that is found in the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

"Although God had finished His works of creation and entered on His rest from creation long before Moses' time, yet under that leader of Israel another rest was promised, which most fell short of through unbelief."

If Hebrews 4:3 was referring to the works which the Lord finished in the eternal state, then the verse would not say "finished from the foundation of the world."

Instead,it would read, "finished before the foundation of the world."

That wont fly pard.

Moses wudn't at the foundation.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I'm saying nothing about a hypostasis of the Son.

Just as scripture says,
I'm speaking of God's singular hypostasis
and
the express image OF that hypostasis
in the context of multi-phenomenality.

Scripture says nothing whatsoever about a Son-hypostasis being the express image. It says the Son is the express image OF His hypostasis, with no mention (there or ANYWHERE ELSE) in scripture of another individuated hypostasis in ANY context.

OK - If the Son IS the exact impress of the Hypostasis of the Father,
then the Hypostasis of the Father IMPRESSES EXACTLY that of the Son...

Because the Hypostasis is the WHO of the Ousia...
So they have identical Hypostases...
Which establishes a more-than-one hypostatic God...

So HOW are you reading this to say that
the Son and the Father have the SELF-SAME Hypostasis,
rather than two identical hypostases?

Show me the back side of your cube...

Arsenios
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
OK - If the Son IS the exact impress of the Hypostasis of the Father,
then the Hypostasis of the Father IMPRESSES EXACTLY that of the Son...

Firstly, this is a uni-phenomenal bare assertion.

Secondly, it's presumptive deduction and inference only; and based on uni-phenomenality.

Thirdly, the charakter is the impress IN/UPON the wax. An individuated hypostasis would have to exist as a blank clone to be impressed and receive the stamp.

Fourthly, whatever is receiving the stamping must be ontologically compatible with noumenal creation; so either the Son can't be in creation or the Son is created, because heaven and the cosmos are a different phenomenon than God.

Fifthly, this would say zip, zilch, nada about the Holy Spirit as an individuated hypostasis.

Sixthly, if it's the EXACT impress of one hypostasis upon another, then the latter would also underlie its own ousia as well.

And seventhly, it all goes back to your perceptions of the multi-phenomenal God as uni-phenomenal.

But you're good at getting one side of the Rubik's Cube to be one color and just looking at that side (and then getting out the spray paint to change all the colors of the other sides).

Because the Hypostasis is the WHO of the Ousia...

Nope. The hypostasis "has" the ousia as the wealth of be-ing. Another individuated hypostasis as an exact impress would also "have" its own ousia.

So they have identical Hypostases...

Nope. There you go again with that horizontality of uni-phenomenality, and a God who can't even enter His own creation to dwell.

Which establishes a more-than-one hypostatic God...

This is the exact jacked-up hyper-inferential silliness that has plagued the faith for 1.7 millennia.

No. It establishes nothing but speculative and coercive conjecture by deduction and presupposition. And it leaves no apologetic whatsoever for the Holy Spirit as an individuated hypostasis.

So HOW are you reading this to say that
the Son and the Father have the SELF-SAME Hypostasis,
rather than two identical hypostases?

I told you in the last post.

The uncreated phenomenon impressed the uncreated noumenon to re-present God's singular hypostasis in created phenomenon.

Show me the back side of your cube...

Arsenios

I have. Repeatedly. You can't and won't see it. You think the impress IS the wax. You won't hear that charakter is the engraving, not the engravED object OF engraving. It stood for the tool, not the object being carved, stamped or engraved. And it meant the impression itself.

The impression with its particular features was considered as the exact RE-PRESENTATION of the object whose image it bore. And autos with the articular means same; not different objectively. It's the same objective reality.

And from charakter is charax, to engrave or impress a mark; a strong stake of wood used in ancient fortifications. Again, not the markED, but the mark. Ultimately, it was the stake driven into the dust of the ground of creation. The Word become flesh.

The Son as the charakter is the impression, not that which is being impressed. Not the wax, but the impression IN the wax. Not the markED, but the mark.

Example... The charakter would be the inscription on a piece of jewelry, NOT the necklace or ring itself.

This has nothing to do with an (alleged) individuated additional hypostasis for horizontality as uni-phenomenality; but everything to do with verticality as multi-phenomenality.

Qualitatively distinct, not quantitatively distinct.

And then there's the Holy Spirit that was just declared a third hypostasis by default. No exact or inexact impress at all, but still an alleged individuated hypostasis. Arrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!!

YOU. DON'T. UNDERSTAND. MULTI-PHENOMENALITY. And neither did the Patristics. If they had, it would have put all other anathemas and world non-religions on a trailer to the dung heap. But NOOOOOOOOOOO. We get three Gorilla-glued siamese triplets on a sheet of paper, in denial of God's attributes themselves.

A God too impotent to create ALL and inhabit that creation. But you don't see it. Sigh.
 
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PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Hypostasis, whether defined by you or those giving heed to seducing spirits, is a figment of men's imaginations.

Lexically (and by scriptural application), it's the exact opposite of what you just said.

The hypostasis is the underlying substantial objective reality of existence necessary for the prosopon as phaino. And phaino is the converse of a figment of the imagination.

Shocking, Bruddah. What is up with you?
 

PneumaPsucheSoma

TOL Subscriber
Because I already know them.

You are not understanding (or acknowledging) that both "son of man" and "son of god" have more than one meaning. They are homonyms.

Different meanings in the son of man:

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.​

how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!”​

Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.​

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.​

Now surely you do not think that Jesus was referring to Himself as a mind-changer, worm, and in whom there is no salvation.

He is The Son of Man of Daniel.

Different meanings in son of god:

Adam, the son of God.​

the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.​

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.​

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.​

Now surely you do not think that Adam as son of God is meant in the same sense as Jesus, son of God.

Jesus is The Son of God.

Exactly. HO HUIOS!
 
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