ECT Our triune God

[God's Truth]

Backatcha, Jezebel the Modalist.

Just listen to yourself. Read the post you just wrote to Lon, and the ones you write to Arsenios. You blab on about a lot of nothing. You even make up stuff about others that are not true.

 

[God's Truth]

I think the chart is a Clarence Larkin chart about the body/soul/spirit.

I believe there is a Trinity, the Godhead, Father, Son, and Spirit.

We are a trinity of body/soul/spirit.

The three fold nature of man.

Soma -- Body
Psyche -- Soul
Pneuma -- Spirit​

Yes, that I believe. ​

We are body and spirit, and that is it.

Our bodies are made alive by our spirits, which make our physical bodies a living soul.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

They are heavenly phrnomena, all created... And yes, they can be shown, but not unless they do the showing...

We anthropomorphize God in these kinds of formulaics, and indeed, God Himself does so, in condescension to us who only have our fallen conceptual understanding to rely upon...

You're insisting God does not shine. There is no qualification whatsoever for phaino that demands createdness.

God makes existent that which was not, and makes non-existent that which was. THEREFORE: Is God existent or non-existent? And the answer is: Neither... His Self-existence serves merely to differentiate Him from our contingency of existence...

I don't think this is the Orthodox position. But if it is, Orthodoxy is nothing more than Platonism at its foundation.

Ego eimi.

Likewise with the existence and non-existence of consciousness in creation... We possess the Image of God in OUR created self-awareness... We can have no clue as to what that may mean in its Divine Essential and Original Form...

Basically, you disannul the Incarnate Logos as God's expression. He didn't stutter.

The problem of saying that God is non-existence should be self-evident.

God tells us: "My thoughts are not your thoughts..."

No. You add much, insisting on cataphatics AND apophatics that are inapplicable.

You refer to musterion and the closed lips, yet there is plenty of speaking and declaring what and who God is. It's hypocritical and convenient double standards.

We take Him at His word...

No, but you sure think you do.

He is the Creator of Phenomenon/a...

This partial truth paralyzes you.

A Ford automobile cannot reason backwards from its steering wheel to the emotional life of Henry Ford...

I'm not reasoning, and God isn't a created man who manufactured an inanimate mechanical object with no nous to intuit and commune in hypostatic union with God's Logos while partaking of His divine nature and being renewed in the Spirit of the mind.

Orthodoxy is beyond shallow in these things, presuming to be profound.

Then you believe God is created,

No, but you just said He's non-existent and created existence, Plato.

because ALL phenomena are created...

Phaino requires an underlying reality. That's a hypostasis. You add to the word AND subtract from the word.

A Self-phenomenon of uncreated existence, when existence is created by a Creator who is beyond existence and non-existence, is self-contradictory...

The silliness you just wrote is self-contradictory and Platonic.

I think we would reject such a notion as anthropomorphizing the nature of God the Creator from nature of creation...

No you wouldn't. You've made an anthropomorphic set of triplets and keyed on the English word "Person" (all of whom would be distinct beings in English).

THAT proof is in the Life lived, and not in a doctrine professed...

Then I guess there shouldn't be all this declared Orthodox doctrine. You can't be constantly playing both ends against the middle. All you're promoting is idle rhema, for which every man will give account.

You walkin' on water these days?

Are you? Is anyone?

Well, if it isn't, and you are wrong, what then? It is worse... It is a noetic infusion that is either from God or is NOT from God...

You just presume that there is no noetic infusion from God contrary to the silliness of Orthodox double-speak.

Apophatics deconstructed the neo-Platonism of Greece and all the pre-Socratics...

Yet you're espousing Platonism at the foundation, with a non-existent God who isn't even Self-Conscious.

That sounds strange... Jesus revealed HIMSELF to His followers, and He is a Person...

Yep.

And in this, He revealed that God is Person...

Yep.

And that Jesus, Who IS God, was obedient to His Father,

Yep.

so that there are two Persons Who are One God....

Nope.

And the same with the Holy Spirit, making Three...

Nope.

Who are One God... We do not pretend to know HOW this is, simply THAT it is...

Sure you do. It's intricately formulated. That's just naive or disingenuous.

You'd be better off saying less.

We re saying that ALL of these terms pertain to creation, and not to the Creator, although they CAN be used to help us who are fallen in a fallen creation to know Who God IS...

That's human limitation, especially when God revealed Himself by His own Logos as the Son.

We say: "God exists."

You also say God is non-existent. And you deny the very meaning of phaino.

And we do well... But this existence, whatever it may be, is not anything we even begin to understand...

Then why have you? And why has any Orthodox ever spoken if musterion is the closed mouth? Double standards.

We can say that God's existence is "Unconditional Transcendent, Self-Conscious Self-Existence" and give it a drum roll and trumpets and a choral halelulia, and we still don't know Schnartz about God...

Right. And we could posture with apophatics while declaring much, and be hypocrites who still don't know Schnartz about God.

You want both sides.

"My THOUGHTS are NOT your thoughts..."

Then the Orthodox should have NO thoughts.

Noumena is a created phenomenon of the human heart... The Nous is the Eye of the Heart... It is the director of the intelligence... It is Janus-faced, in that it can be scattered among the phenomena of existence, or it can be concentrated into the Love of God in ongoing purification of the Heart...

God is not a product of our noumenal existence... And indeed, demons have noetic access to our bodies and souls...

This should alarm the Orthodox instead of warning everyone else while ignoring yourselves.

The Nous of man can perceive both God and Creation insofar as God is willing to be seen... And insofar as we have enough purity of heart to see Him...

Oh, now we can know Him by revelation and permission. Convenient that it's only the Orthodox to which this applies.

I mean, answering you, God CREATED noumenal existence in man... And of course He can access it... But this does not mean that God has His "existence" in some category of creation known as "Noumenological Phenomenology" or whatever...

Ummm... I didn't say anything remotely representative of this. You just want to deny anyone else has intuitive knowledge except the Orthodox who have these double standards and double-speak.

Oh He is the Great I AM, no question, but for us, to whom this conceptual and verbal condescension was given, to sieze upon it and think we KNOW God because we can UNDERSTAND the meaning of the words, just won't cut it...

Arsenios

That's why I don't do that, but the Orthodox do.

Orthodoxy has specified three hypostases, not me. Orthodoxy has cataphatically declared boatloads of stuff while refusing others to do so.

You can't see the paradoxes and double standards from within.

 

[Psalmist]

We are body and spirit, and that is it.

Our bodies are made alive by our spirits, which make our physical bodies a living soul.

Right: body, soul, and spirit.​

 

[God's Truth]

Right: body, soul, and spirit.​

When are physical body dies, our spirit goes to live with the Lord, and our body is no longer a living soul.

 

[Lon]

Okay.

Thank you.

I'm more concerned about what I've said and its accurate representation than an apology.

Okay. If you have time, backtrack a bit and let me know where I you believe I lost you.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

When are physical body dies, our spirit goes to live with the Lord, and our body is no longer a living soul.

Why is your spirit not with the Lord now?

LA

 

[God's Truth]

Why is your spirit not with the Lord now?

LA

My spirit is with the Lord right now.

I will always be with the Lord.

 

[Arsenios]

The unintentional blasphemy
of conflating perichoresis
with hypostatic union.

Can you show us this difference (which we conflate) in experiential terms?

Arsenios

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Can you show us this difference (which we conflate) in experiential terms?

Arsenios

He already did.

He has pointed out how you got there in ignorance.


You already have seen the differences but yer pride will not let you admit it.

Experiential enuff for you?

 

[Arsenios]

It is scripture. I only say what the scriptures say.

I will gladly show it to you.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding. Acknowledge him in all your ways, and he will make your paths straight.

John 8:31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

John 14:21 The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Psalm 119:100 I have more understanding than the elders, for I obey your precepts.

Psalm 37:5Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him and he will do this:


See Arsenios, we do not get understanding until we first trust and obey.

May God continue to bless your presence here, GT...

When I first 'met' you here, you were one raw wound fighting a pack of wolves, bitten and biting back, giving as good as you got, and making no friends, nor desiring any other friendship than the Friend you have... You are calmer now, you ol' ex-Latinized trouble-maker! And I thank God for it...

And I hear your word, that we do not get understanding until we trust and obey the word of the Word... This (eg obedience in trust) is a great treasury, you see, for it is the path of Discipleship in the Lord... It did the Amorites no good, mind you, but that only proves its worth... Yet I was the Amorite... And I came to know God without knowledge of His word, nor obedience to it, but by sheer prodigality...

You see, when one has the blessing of God's word written on paper, and believes it in trust, and obeys it, one can avoid the open seas and its storms that one will otherwise encounter... And the world is witness to THAT destruction... And THAT is what I came through... By God's Grace...

Which is why I asked you the other question, because prior to the good words of Holy Writ, there was nothing written, and yet some people managed to know God and THEN write about it...

You had written:

The trust before understanding is a powerful time,
and you have not experienced that,
since you use writings other than the Holy Scriptures.

And you cited Proverbs to establish that idea:

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not rely on your own understanding.
Acknowledge him in all your ways,
and he will make your paths straight.

This passage tells us to walk in trust, and to set aside our own understanding, and that by ever-acknowledging Him IN that walk, He will make our paths straight...

This describes faith in action, you see... And yes, it will give one an understanding not previously held, but it is the obedience of a child to its parents, where the child's understanding gets in the way of it walk, and the good parent will step in and correct the child... That describes the Law, you see, for the Children of Israel...

The setting aside of one's own understanding is a key feature of the path to union with God... And this makes one's actions crucial for the ascent, for if we turn away to the crooked ways of our own understanding, we will never know God in union with Him, in the Marriage of the Lamb, where the Bride is in obedience to the Bridegroom, the Lamb... And our Lamps must be filled with oil purchased in the world - eg In the living of self-sacrificial and virtuous lives...

So back to your point and its demonstration from Scripture, the words do not say that the time is precious prior to understanding, but that if we are to make that time worthwhile, we must turn away from our own understanding in our trusting of God...

Your early years constrained you as a child to walk in obedience to mistaken authority, eg the Catholic upbringing... Mine was in being left to my own devices without direction at all... I do not wonder that we have turned out as we have...

Our "disagreement" is but a minor quibble...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

He already did.

He has pointed out how you got there in ignorance.


You already have seen the differences but yer pride will not let you admit it.

Experiential enuff for you?

No...

Try again...

Show the difference ostensively...

So we all can see it without the big words...

In our own terms...

Or yours...

But in terms of common experience...

Pig-poking is not helpful here...

Arsenios

 

[God's Truth]

May God continue to bless your presence here, GT...

When I first 'met' you here, you were one raw wound fighting a pack of wolves, bitten and biting back,

The truth may hurt people, but I am not a dog as you imply. I do not bite people, nor did I have raw wounds. I was a member on this site for close to a year longer than you have, and I have been debating others on other sites for many years. Your false perceptions of me does not reality make.

giving as good as you got, and making no friends, nor desiring any other friendship than the Friend you have... You are calmer now, you ol' ex-Latinized trouble-maker! And I thank God for it...

I care very little if I am judged by you or any man. You saying I am calmer now is your opinion and has little bearing on truth. My conscience is clear as to my behavior here or anywhere. I speak about things that have to do with scripture. You, however, are trying to speak about me in a personal way to deter us from the scriptures.

And I hear your word, that we do not get understanding until we trust and obey the word of the Word... This is a great treasury, you see, for it is the path of Discipleship in the Lord... It did the Amorites no good, mind you, but that only proves its worth... Yet I was the Amorite... And I came to know God without knowledge of His word, nor obedience to it, but by sheer prodigality...

What you say shows nothing in the way of truth, except that you judge Latin Catholics as false and your Eastern Catholic denomination as the truth because it is the first denomination that converted you.
God’s Truth does not work that way. Even Solomon the son of David had to search for God. We search for God by getting His teachings. We find God by obeying His teachings.

You see, when one has the blessing of God's word written on paper, and believes it in trust, and obeys it, one can avoid the open seas and its storms that one will otherwise encounter... And the world is witness to THAT destruction... And THAT is what I came through... By God's Grace...

Which is why I asked you the question, because prior to the good words of Holy Writ, there was nothing written, and yet some people managed to know God and THEN write about it...

You have to HEAR God’s Truth. Whether you hear someone else speak the truth, or whether you hear it while you are reading it yourself.

You had written:

The trust before understanding is a powerful time,
and you have not experienced that,
since you use writings other than the Holy Scriptures.

What a mess, Arsenios. What you say is nonsense. God’s Word tells us to watch our doctrines closely. You are trusting in a feeling you got when a false teacher said SOMETHING true about God…if I had stayed in the first place that I felt something for God, I would still be a Traditional Roman Catholic.
You also fail to grasp that the Old Testament was written a long time ago. That is the Bible that people used for centuries upon centuries to know God’s Truth.
Everything in the New Testament can be proven by the Old Testament.

And you cited Proverbs to establish that idea:

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
and do not rely on your own understanding.
Acknowledge him in all your ways,
and he will make your paths straight.

This passage tells us to walk in trust, and to set aside our own understanding, and that by ever-acknowledging Him IN that walk, He will make our paths straight...

This describes faith in action, you see... And yes, it will give one an understanding not previously held, but it is the obedience of a child to its parents, where the child's understanding gets in the way of it walk, and the good parent will step in and correct the child... That describes the Law, you see, for the Children of Israel...

The setting aside of one's own understanding is a key feature of the path to union with God... And this makes one's actions crucial for the ascent, for if we turn away to the crooked ways of our own understanding, we will never know God in union with Him, in the Marriage of the Lamb, where the Bride is in obedience to the Bridegroom, the Lamb... And our Lamps must be filled with oil purchased in the world - eg In the living of self-sacrificial and virtuous lives...

So back to your point and its demonstration from Scripture, the words do not say that the time is precious prior to understanding, but that if we are to make that time worthwhile, we must turn away from our own understanding in our trusting of God...

You are only saying I am not right while you repeat what I said.

Your early years constrained you as a child to walk in obedience to mistaken authority, eg the Catholic upbringing... Mine was in being left to my own devices without direction at all... I do not wonder that we have turned out as we have...

Our "disagreement" is but a quibble...

Arsenios

Again, just because you believe in the first person who said something true about God, does not mean you are to follow that person’s religion. If it was as you say, then I would just accept the Traditional Roman Catholic denomination…or, after I left that denomination…in search for God…according to your logic…I would except the very next belief that came after that…and that would be the Jehovah Witnesses at my door; for that was at a time when I told God I would search for Him. Why should I not have been a JW? It was when I only wanted God’s Truth! I will tell you why, because that is NOT what we are to do…we are not to sit there and just say hey, whoever talks about Jesus I will believe and follow.

I later got involved in the Mormon religion. Should I have just stayed there? They became my family and FRIENDS…my parents were long time dead and loveless family was dispersed…but these were my family and friends. Didn’t you try to ridicule me earlier for not having friends? I give all up for God’s Truth.

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.


The ONLY WAY you are going to find God’s Truth is by the WAY…Jesus is the WAY. You will not find eternal life until you get JESUS’ teachings and obey them. That is what Jesus says. That is God’s Truth.

 

[God's Truth]

The Orthodox denomination does not obey God.

Even before Jesus' words were written, we have God's written Word in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is prophecies, and those prophecies are revealed through Jesus.

There is not one scripture in the Old Testament that speaks of things that Arsenios denomination does.

There is not one scripture were we are told to dunk three times and drink milk with honey after being baptized in water. There is no scripture that says to make a picture of a holy person and bow to it; in fact, the Old Testament scriptures say not to do that.
There is not one scripture that says to dig up the holy dead and put them in a place so that they can be prayed to for a healing; nor for us to take their personal belongings, 'relics' and venerate them.
There is not one scripture in the Old Testament that tells us to pray to the mother of the Holy One to come.

 

[Arsenios]

The truth may hurt people, but I am not a dog as you imply. I do not bite people, nor did I have raw wounds. I was a member on this site for close to a year longer than you have, and I have been debating others on other sites for many years. Your false perceptions of me does not reality make.

OK...

Yet hurting people with God's Truth seems a strange word...

The Word of God heals...

I sure saw you in a blizzard of postings and getting banned regularly...

I care very little if I am judged by you or any man.

Me too, or woman for that matter...

But I care about the person who is judging me...

You saying I am calmer now is your opinion and has little bearing on truth.

I will take the "little"... Your writing style is calmer, how about that?

My conscience is clear as to my behavior here or anywhere. I speak about things that have to do with scripture. You, however, are trying to speak about me in a personal way to deter us from the scriptures.

Christ is a Person, and the Marriage of the Lamb is Personal...

Speaking to persons is not the same as speaking to computers...

God's Truth is Personal, or it is nothing...

Gotta run - Services!

Arsenios

 

[I drank what?]

triune... is that sorta like how water can be solid, liquid or gas? or is it more like a shamrock?

 

[God's Truth]

OK...

Yet hurting people with God's Truth seems a strange word...

You are very inconsistent, Arsenios. What did you say before about suffering?
If hearing the truth hurts you do you want people to stop preaching the truth?
Have I become your enemy by telling you the truth?
Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

The Word of God heals...

I sure saw you in a blizzard of postings and getting banned regularly...

Do you think my getting banned is proof that you are right about something? Do you hold the people’s opinions above that of God?
2 Corinthians 11: 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder,been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches.
Acts 5:41 The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

Me too, or woman for that matter...

But I care about the person who is judging me...

I care about you to and the falseness you have chosen over God.

I will take the "little"... Your writing style is calmer, how about that?

As I said before, it is the same. My conscience is clear. Maybe your style is calmer now. Since you put so much value for your spiritual life on getting reprimanded by the moderators here…maybe you feel good about yourself after you have been rebuked by them?
Your sarcasm and rudeness has not gone unnoticed.

Christ is a Person, and the Marriage of the Lamb is Personal...

Speaking to persons is not the same as speaking to computers...

God's Truth is Personal, or it is nothing...

Gotta run - Services!

Arsenios

Every post I send is personal.

 

[Arsenios]

What a mess, Arsenios.

Welcome to the human condition, where...

To Live - Christ!
To Die - Gain!

What you say is nonsense.

Oh, my friend, I have said far worse, mind you...

God’s Word tells us to watch our doctrines closely.

And it also tells us to obey those appointed over us, remember?

So both are important, and one cannot exalt doctrines over obedience, nor vice versa, but all kata holon, according to the whole, of discipleship in Christ...

You are trusting in a feeling you got when a false teacher said SOMETHING true about God…

Never...

I scorned ALL such teachers...

I know God...

I knew God for 14 years not knowing He is the Christian God...

And HE told me...

No man brought me to God or Christ...

if I had stayed in the first place that I felt something for God, I would still be a Traditional Roman Catholic.

OK - But I am not you...

You also fail to grasp that the Old Testament was written a long time ago. That is the Bible that people used for centuries upon centuries to know God’s Truth.
Everything in the New Testament can be proven by the Old Testament.

Aren't they just a wonderful unity?

You are only saying I am not right while you repeat what I said.

OK - It was a really minor quibble...

Again, just because you believe in the first person who said something true about God, does not mean you are to follow that person’s religion.

Again, you are not me, nor I you... You are interpreting me according to your path, as you go on to say:

If it was as you say, then I would just accept the Traditional Roman Catholic denomination…or, after I left that denomination…in search for God…according to your logic…I would except the very next belief that came after that…and that would be the Jehovah Witnesses at my door; for that was at a time when I told God I would search for Him. Why should I not have been a JW? It was when I only wanted God’s Truth! I will tell you why, because that is NOT what we are to do…we are not to sit there and just say hey, whoever talks about Jesus I will believe and follow.

Thank-you for sharing your path with me...

If you want Christ, WHO IS God's Truth, you are right - You have to set aside all teachers and go to the Source, God...

I later got involved in the Mormon religion. Should I have just stayed there? They became my family and FRIENDS…my parents were long time dead and loveless family was dispersed…but these were my family and friends.

The world is but a tutor, yes? A governess... Until we are old enough for marriage...

Didn’t you try to ridicule me earlier for not having friends?

Never... I admired you for it...

I give all up for God’s Truth.

You see, we are not all that dis-similar...

Matthew 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Exactly...

The ONLY WAY you are going to find God’s Truth is by the WAY…Jesus is the WAY. You will not find eternal life until you get JESUS’ teachings and obey them. That is what Jesus says. That is God’s Truth.

The written word is but the means of helping us to know God in the Marriage of the Lamb, a great Mystery, as Paul reports... But knowing Him is not a doctrinal matter, but is instead one of utterly personal relationship attained through obedience to Him...

HE, you see...
is NOT OUR DOCTRINES...
ABOUT HIM...

Christ is God's Truth...
And...
Christ is a Person...

Arsenios

 

[God's Truth]

Welcome to the human condition, where...

To Live - Christ!
To Die - Gain!

To live is to obey Christ.
To die is to go to heaven to be with Christ.

And it also tells us to obey those appointed over you, remember?

Those who had themselves appointed are not appointed over us from God. Men appointing men who teach things that God did not say are not men I am supposed to follow.

So both are important, and one cannot exalt doctrines over obedience, nor vice versa, but all kata holon, according to the whole, of discipleship in Christ...

That is nonsense. God’s written Word is what we are to follow.
I gave you many scriptures proving that.
Your teachers teach things that go against the written Word. That alone should show you not to join them.

Never...

I scorned ALL such teachers...

I know God...

I knew God for 14 years not knowing He is the Christian God...

And HE told me...

No man brought me to God or Christ...

You are speaking confusion.
No matter, for you have to obey God to be saved. That is how we know God.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But whoever loves God is known by God.

You do not love God unless you obey God, want scripture?

God does not love you or know you unless you love Him by obeying Him. That is God’s Truth.

Again, you are not me, nor I you... You are interpreting me according to your path, as you go on to say:

No. I am going by God’s written Word.

The written word is but the means of helping us to know God in the Marriage of the Lamb, a great Mystery, as Paul reports... But knowing Him is not a doctrinal matter, but is instead one of utterly personal relationship attained through obedience to Him...

HE, you see...
is NOT OUR DOCTRINES...
ABOUT HIM...

Christ is God's Truth...
And...
Christ is a Person...

Arsenios

No one will know God’s Truth unless we obey Jesus’ teachings. The denomination you belong to does not obey Jesus’ teachings…you call your brothers ‘father’; you bow to “Holy Images”; you pray to Mary as a mediator; and many other such things you do.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

No...

Try again...

Show the difference ostensively...

So we all can see it without the big words...

In our own terms...

Or yours...

But in terms of common experience...

Pig-poking is not helpful here...

Arsenios

Better get back to yer hogshed then.:jawdrop: