ECT Our triune God

[john w]

“For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:..” Is. 28:10,
____________________________________________________
______________________

“I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.” Psalms 102:24-27

“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?” Hebrews 1:1-14

-“his Son”, Hebrews 1:2, was the person by whom “he made the worlds”-Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ

-“the Son”, Hebrews 1:5, is addressed as “God”-Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ


-Hebrews 1:10 says “Thou, Lord”, referring to “the Son” “hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hand”, and yet Psalms 102 24-27 says “God” hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands” -Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ

Thus, the Godhead of the Lord Jesus Christ is declared specifically by The Holy Spirit by Hebrews 1 verses 2,3, 8, and supplemented by Psalms 102.

Psalms 102 is interpreted by Hebrews 1, and is evident(to those who are willing to bow to the scripture’s testimony), verses 1-11, 23, 24 as far as the word “days”(102:3), are uttered by the Messiah, the Christ, as the "man of sorrows”(Is. 53:3); and that verses 12-22, 24 of the Psalm , from the word “They”, verse 26, to verse 28, are predictions addressed to Him as the mighty God by the Holy Spirit.

 

[john w]

John

One wonders who He who made Jesus Lord and Christ is.

Why He had to make the “Almighty God the Father” Lord and anoint him?

It is a silly attempt to infer the mistakes of the NT back into the OT instead of getting to know God from the OT first.

One has to note that if a king sends a general to concur a country the king gets the glory not the general.

=assert, pound the podium, declare victory, employ humanism, as the subtil serpent did in Genesis 3("One wonders who He who made Jesus Lord and Christ is."), employ the old RCC debating technique, by changing the subject, return to "Yeh, man can die any time he wants, by releasing his spirit" sophistry....."that does not mean he is God..."

 

[graceandpeace]

This clearly excludes Jesus on two counts:

- Because he was dead.
- Because he was seen by many.


Jerzy:

I said:

Quote:
This is speaking of God, as NOT in the flesh. Some texts speak of God as IN the flesh..Jesus.

Jesus is still in flesh:

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

You fail to understand that when Jesus was ascended; He was changed...and went back to His former glory:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

God is spirit...and, no man has seen God in the form of HIS true reality...as the text shows..the human eye cannot behold it.

The bible makes it plain that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...but, we shall all be changed...from corruptible flesh to incorruption..which is NOT flesh, and this is why we read here:


2 cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [him] no more. ...


which pretty much explains the rest of your post to me.

If Jesus was not God, or is not God...we have no Savior...for the whole of the bible speaks of one thing...that ONE JUST MAN would come to die for the unjust.

There was only one...that was JUST in the way that could get this done. GOD, made flesh.

 

[john w]

You rude erudition is noted.

1Cor 10:9 says that some tempted. You allude that they tempted Christ.

You have forgotten about the angel of God whom Israel had to obey:

Exo 23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

How much more one has to obey the anointed of the Father the only true God?

You missed it again, and, as usual, punted-slower:

“Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?” Exodus 17:2

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9

Thus, Exodus says “the people” tempted whom? The LORD. And the scriptures in 1 Cor., referring to the same OT history of “children of Israel”(Exodus 17:1), says they tempted Christ. Christ is the LORD God.

Read it-"some of them also tempted"-they tempted "the LORD," who Paul identifies as "Christ." Paul was referring to the same historical event.

Football is over, but you continue to punt. Lovely.

 

[graceandpeace]

*
Grlz has rightly pointed out that there are differences of opinions and very wide ones [that is plain to see in the church] but there are foundation truths essential to salvation. that Christ is very God is a foundation truth.

Those that dispute the trinity are one thing but those who deny Christ's divinity another. Moreover they show themselves incapable of understanding the scriptures, that must be the case because they are fighting against the One who IS the very word of God.

Like all cultists they have climbed into the sheepfold in some other way than through the door. No wonder the sheep treat them with the utmost suspicion....their language is somewhat different to the Jerusalem brogue we know and love.

We will worship our Lord as God.

AMEN...

 

[graceandpeace]

You missed it again, and, as usual, punted-slower:

“Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?” Exodus 17:2

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9

Thus, Exodus says “the people” tempted whom? The LORD. And the scriptures in 1 Cor., referring to the same OT history of “children of Israel”(Exodus 17:1), says they tempted Christ. Christ is the LORD God.

Read it-"some of them also tempted"-they tempted "the LORD," who Paul identifies as "Christ." Paul was referring to the same historical event.

Football is over, but you continue to punt. Lovely.

Good post, John.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Good post, John.

*
He's good inne? when he's not doing MAD.

 

[jerzy]

=assert, pound the podium, declare victory, employ humanism, as the subtil serpent did in Genesis 3("One wonders who He who made Jesus Lord and Christ is."), employ the old RCC debating technique, by changing the subject, return to "Yeh, man can die any time he wants, by releasing his spirit" sophistry....."that does not mean he is God..."

John.

You are just trying to prove that God is a liar.

Good luck, pal.

 

[Gill White]

*
Grlz has rightly pointed out that there are differences of opinions and very wide ones [that is plain to see in the church] but there are foundation truths essential to salvation. that Christ is very God is a foundation truth.

Those that dispute the trinity are one thing but those who deny Christ's divinity another. Moreover they show themselves incapable of understanding the scriptures, that must be the case because they are fighting against the One who IS the very word of God.

Like all cultists they have climbed into the sheepfold in some other way than through the door. No wonder the sheep treat them with the utmost suspicion....their language is somewhat different to the Jerusalem brogue we know and love.

We will worship our Lord as God.

Why do you deny, the Lord that brought you: They denied Him all those years ago, killed Him and even today, they still deny Him.

Why? Why do you deny God's son?

 

[Krsto]

*
Grlz has rightly pointed out that there are differences of opinions and very wide ones [that is plain to see in the church] but there are foundation truths essential to salvation. that Christ is very God is a foundation truth.

Those that dispute the trinity are one thing but those who deny Christ's divinity another. Moreover they show themselves incapable of understanding the scriptures, that must be the case because they are fighting against the One who IS the very word of God.

Like all cultists they have climbed into the sheepfold in some other way than through the door. No wonder the sheep treat them with the utmost suspicion....their language is somewhat different to the Jerusalem brogue we know and love.

We will worship our Lord as God.

Uhm, sir, I can't speak for everybody here, but I for one understand the trinity better than 99% of the trinitarians. I suggest you are the one who does not understand how the verses you quote can be interpreted any other way than through trinitarian concepts. You simply do not understand, and unfortunately you have been debating with those who aren't very good teachers so I guess it's no wonder and I for one can't blame you for that. I would, however, suggest you take a look at the small booklet you can read online called Who Is Jesus by Anthony Buzzard at

http://21stcr.org/multimedia/PDF/who_is_jesus.pdf

You may not agree with the material presented but I hope at least you will begin to realize non-trins do have good reason to not be trinitarians.

 

[jerzy]

You fail to understand that when Jesus was ascended; He was changed...and went back to His former glory:

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Why Jesus "God the Almighty Father" had to be glorified by another God?

Take a look at this:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rev 13:8 …the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose… which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Well, God has chosen and saved us before the world began. Are we Gods too?

If Jesus was not God, or is not God...we have no Savior...for the whole of the bible speaks of one thing...that ONE JUST MAN would come to die for the unjust.

There was only one...that was JUST in the way that could get this done. GOD, made flesh.

I would like to advice you to pay more attention to what you post.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Why do you deny, the Lord that brought you: They denied Him all those years ago, killed Him and even today, they still deny Him.

Why? Why do you deny God's son?

*
Your thought patterns are the same as both Jerzy and Krsto and just as inane. Have we a trinity here? the things you all say make no logical sense, let alone spritual sense.

 

[jerzy]

*
Your thought patterns are the same as both Jerzy and Krsto and just as inane. Have we a trinity here? the things you all say make no logical sense, let alone spritual sense.

You err because you don't know God no His power.

Your delusions are of a confused mind.

 

[john w]

John.

You are just trying to prove that God is a liar.

Good luck, pal.

Zinged me again with that never before heard in the history of mankind "that God is a liar" shocking shut down closer. Intimidating.

Translation:3 and out.


And there is no such thing as "luck" in the book. You'd know that, had you studied, and surveyed the book, instead of watching your talk shows.

With me, "sport?"

 

[jerzy]

Zinged me again with that never before heard in the history of mankind "that God is a liar" shocking shut down closer. Intimidating.

Translation:3 and out.


And there is no such thing as "luck" in the book. You'd know that, had you studied, and surveyed the book, instead of watching your talk shows.

With me, "sport?"

So you must have seen some of hundreds of fool proof verses like these:

Isa 11:1-3, 42:1+6, Eze 34:23-24, Mic 5:2, Mt 6:9, 11:25, Jn 6:23, 6:44-45, 6:65, 14:6, 14:10, 17:3, 20:17, 20:31, Ac 2:22, 2:36, 3:21, 10:36, 17:31, Ro 1:7, 1Cor 1:3, 8:6, 2Co 1:2, 5:18+21, Eph 1:3, 2:18, Ga 1:1, 1:3, Col 1:1-3, 1:12-13, Php 1:2, 1Th 1:1-3, 2Th 1:1-2, 1Ti 1:1-2, 2:5, 2Ti 1:1-2, Ti 1:4, Phm 1:3-4, Heb 1:1-2, Jam 1:1, 1Pe 1:2-3, 2Pe 1:2, 1Jn 1:2-3, 2Jn 1:3, Jud 1:1, Re 1:1.

What you suggest should be done to them to get them away of your crocked theology?

Are you not trying to prove that God is a liar peddling pagan fables?

Are you not trying to take the true worshippers of the Father the only true God astray that they may forfeit the eternal life?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Can you offer anybody the eternal life?

If not than why don’t you mind what you are saying to avoid this?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[john w]

So you must have seen some of hundreds of fool proof verses like these:

Isa 11:1-3, 42:1+6, Eze 34:23-24, Mic 5:2, Mt 6:9, 11:25, Jn 6:23, 6:44-45, 6:65, 14:6, 14:10, 17:3, 20:17, 20:31, Ac 2:22, 2:36, 3:21, 10:36, 17:31, Ro 1:7, 1Cor 1:3, 8:6, 2Co 1:2, 5:18+21, Eph 1:3, 2:18, Ga 1:1, 1:3, Col 1:1-3, 1:12-13, Php 1:2, 1Th 1:1-3, 2Th 1:1-2, 1Ti 1:1-2, 2:5, 2Ti 1:1-2, Ti 1:4, Phm 1:3-4, Heb 1:1-2, Jam 1:1, 1Pe 1:2-3, 2Pe 1:2, 1Jn 1:2-3, 2Jn 1:3, Jud 1:1, Re 1:1.

What you suggest should be done to them to get them away of your crocked theology?

Are you not trying to prove that God is a liar peddling pagan fables?

Are you not trying to take the true worshippers of the Father the only true God astray that they may forfeit the eternal life?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Can you offer anybody the eternal life?

If not than why don’t you mind what you are saying to avoid this?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

“Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?” Exodus 17:2

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9

Thus, Exodus says “the people” tempted whom? The LORD. And the scriptures in 1 Cor., referring to the same OT history of “children of Israel”(Exodus 17:1), says they tempted Christ. Christ is the LORD God.

Read it-"some of them also tempted"-they tempted "the LORD," who Paul identifies as "Christ." Paul was referring to the same historical event.

Football is over, but you continue to punt. Lovely.


"So you must have seen some of hundreds of fool proof verses like these:........."-jerzy


"So you must have seen some of hundreds of fool proof verses, asserting that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, in :

Genesis-Revelation.
I just "one upped you."

"What you suggest should be done to them to get them away of your crocked theology?Are you not trying to prove that God is a liar peddling pagan fables?"-jerzy

More never before heard sound bytes. How weighty. Where do you come up with these stumpers, gems?

Show us that you can die. Go ahead-die right now.


I thought so.

End of thread.

 

[john w]

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28*


My comment: In “5th grade English”, even if you knew nothing of/about the Lord Jesus Christ, the passage is declaring that “he”, referring back within this scriptural passage to “God” , “hath purchased” “the Church” “with his own blood.” So, God has blood? When was this purchased? By whom? By God 2000 years ago at Calvary. To whom is this referring? Romans 3:25, 5:9; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14

“And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.”Genesis 22:8

My comment: God will not only provide a lamb, He will be the lamb! To whom is this referring, this “God” who will provide “himself” as the lamb?

“Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:” Exodus 12:5

And realized:

“…Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world… Behold the Lamb of God!...”, “…stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all (John 1:29, 36; Rev. 5:6).

The Lord Jesus Christ was the only man that has ever walked the earth to this point in time(2011) who had no sin-He was/is “without blemish”: 2 Cor. 5:21; Hebrews 4:15,7:26; 1 John 3:5; Luke 23:4; John 18:38,19:4-6.

*Pre-emptive strike: Watch the forthcoming "In every early manuscript it reads, 'church of the Lord' , it changed to support ther trinty doctrine."

 

[graceandpeace]

Why Jesus "God the Almighty Father" had to be glorified by another God?Take a look at this:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rev 13:8 …the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose… which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Well, God has chosen and saved us before the world began. Are we Gods too?



I would like to advice you to pay more attention to what you post.

If you knew that He did NOT have to be glorified by another God but was proclaiming HIS OWN glory, that HE said HE would NOT give to another, you would see how your fallacy ends.

Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


I think you are attempting to make Jesus a mere man...there is no other God, besides Him.

He never attempted to give His glory to another God...the trinity does NOT teach that there are three God's...which is probably why you don't like it..you think it does...it never did.

 

[john w]

The Lord Jesus Christ, by His own power, "gave up/yielded" "the ghost."

Who can do that?

Well? Go ahead-try and die.

 

[jerzy]

“Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?” Exodus 17:2

“Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.” 1 Corinthians 10:9

Thus, Exodus says “the people” tempted whom? The LORD. And the scriptures in 1 Cor., referring to the same OT history of “children of Israel”(Exodus 17:1), says they tempted Christ. Christ is the LORD God.

Read it-"some of them also tempted"-they tempted "the LORD," who Paul identifies as "Christ." Paul was referring to the same historical event.

Football is over, but you continue to punt. Lovely.


"So you must have seen some of hundreds of fool proof verses like these:........."-jerzy


"So you must have seen some of hundreds of fool proof verses, asserting that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, in :

Revelation-Genesis.

I just "one upped you."

"What you suggest should be done to them to get them away of your crocked theology?Are you not trying to prove that God is a liar peddling pagan fables?"-jerzy

More never before heard sound bytes. How weighty. Where do you come up with these stumpers, gems?

Show us that you can die. Go ahead-die right now.


I thought so.

End of thread.

John.

Why your post have to be abusive? Don’t you have Christian maners?

You allude that the Lord of the OT denotes Jesus.

One wonders why Jews didn't know this.

Why you can't show it written that Jesus is God except for the few of the Trinitarian clear forgeries?

Why you can't show written that God had to die for our sins?

Why can't you show that Mary gave birth to God?

Can you explain how man like you could kill God?


Coming back to your silly comparison of Ex 17:2 with 1Co 10:9 once more.

It is a lame goat’s attempt to claim a tree.

If your claim was true you would be able to deal honestly with these verses instead of offering your rude erudition:

Isa 11:1-3, 42:1+6, Eze 34:23-24, Mic 5:2, Mt 6:9, 11:25, Jn 6:23, 6:44-45, 6:65, 14:6, 14:10, 17:3, 20:17, 20:31, Ac 2:22, 2:36, 3:21, 10:36, 17:31, Ro 1:7, 1Cor 1:3, 8:6, 2Co 1:2, 5:18+21, Eph 1:3, 2:18, Ga 1:1, 1:3, Col 1:1-3, 1:12-13, Php 1:2, 1Th 1:1-3, 2Th 1:1-2, 1Ti 1:1-2, 2:5, 2Ti 1:1-2, Ti 1:4, Phm 1:3-4, Heb 1:1-2, Jam 1:1, 1Pe 1:2-3, 2Pe 1:2, 1Jn 1:2-3, 2Jn 1:3, Jud 1:1, Re 1:1.

Alas, you know that all of them are fool proof texts and disqualify your story at first glance.

Besides, Jesus as the anointed man of the Father the only true God was given all power to execute His will.

Therefore, tempting the right hand man is to offend the Father.

Now, John.

Either you attend to those verses above and tell us what you suggest be done with them or you just may dance to your own tune.