ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
before the fall? :freak:
"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
before the fall? :freak:
Derf
Well-known member
Perhaps to give another example of deeds of an ancestor ascribed to descendants,
[Heb 7:9-10 NIV] 9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
If Levi could tithe to Melchizedek before he was born, could we not sin before we were born, in Adam? [Rom 3:23 NIV] 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
If the "all" means "all", including infants, and "have sinned" is past tense, then perhaps they sinned "in Adam" as Levi paid tithes "in Abraham".
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The problem with the example you give at Hebrews 7:9-10 is that those verses cannot be taken literally.
"And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him" (Heb.7:9-10).
Now let us read the comments of Albert Barnes on this verse:
"And as I may so say - So to speak...For numerous examples in the classic writers of this expression, see Wetstein in loc. It is used precisely as it is with us when we say "so to speak," or 'if I may be allowed the expression.' It is employed when what is said is not strictly and literally true, but when it amounts to the same thing, or when about the same idea is conveyed. 'It is a 'softening down' of an expression which a writer supposes his readers may deem too strong, or which may have the appearance of excess or severity. It amounts to an indirect apology for employing an unusual or unexpected assertion or phrase.' 'Prof. Stuart.' Here Paul could not mean that Levi had actually paid tithes in Abraham - for he had not then an existence; or that Abraham was his representative - for there had been no appointment of Abraham to act in that capacity by Levi; or that the act of Abraham was imputed or reckoned to Levi, for that was not true, and would not have been pertinent to the case if it were so" [emphasis added] (Albert Barnes, Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Epistle to the Hebrews [New York: Harper & Brothers, 1855], 159).
Of course what the author said at Hebrews 7:9-10 cannot be taklen literally. That is why he used the opening words "And as I may so say." According to A. R. Fausset that phrase can only be understood in a figurative sense:
"as I may so say-to preclude what he is about to say being taken in the mere literal sense" [emphasis added] (Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, 1871).
Besides, Romans 5:12 states in no uncertain terms that death passed upon all men because "all have sinned." Not, as many imagine, that all have sinned in Adam.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, their bodies were subject to physical death from the beginning. And that is why they had to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live forever (Gen.3:22-24).
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Please quote me where I ever said that.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Con:
If we are created at our conception or birth and born in sin as scripture suggests, because of Adam's sin which we inherit due to his headship over us, then GOD made/created us as sinners. HE did not create us independant of a federal head as HE created Adam and Eve... Since HE created them innocent, spiritually alive, we know HE could have created us innocent but instead we are taught by men HE created us evil, spiritually dead. What does not add up about this idea?
1. GOD in whom no wickedness is, cannot put forth wickedness in HIS creation any more that a well of pure, life giving water give forth salt or brackish water, James 3:11-13 . Christ who created us John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. is our well of life John 4:14 ...indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life." and as our well of life and our creator He cannot create anyone spiritually dead, full of evil and condemned already to hell.
2. The holy Church is to be the Bride of Christ. What possible reason could HE have for creating HIS Bride in the depths of evil, corrupt and soiled by the disease of sin and rotten to the core???! The only status that HE could possibly rationally created HIS Bride is as ingenuously innocent. Period. Like HE did Adam. Like HE did Eve. Answer this: Why not us?? HIS pleasure? Ezekiel 18:32"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. and therefore HE would never create us already spiritually dead. HE creates for HIS pleasure and HE takes no pleasure in death so ...HE did not create us dead!!!
3. If I make a machine that does evil, who is responsible for the evil it does? Only a person who has a free will (who is not a meat machine) who freely chooses to disobey the command of GOD can be evil. Without free will we are merely doing as our creator programmed us to do and that cannot be to do evil if HE is a perfectly loving and righteous GOD. Only a person who chooses by their own free will to be disobedient to GOD can have real guilt, a guilt real enough to make his spirit enslaved to sin. No one who does evil by the will of another is guilty.
4. Before any scripture is quoted on this topic, it must be shown to NOT be in conflict with Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent... and Deuteronomy 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin., and Jeremiah 31:30 "But everyone will die for his own iniquity;
The child will not share the guilt of the parent...HUMAN KIND DOES NOT SHARE THE GUILT OF OUR PARENT, ADAM!!! If a verse seems to say that our sin comes from another, a parent, then it is wrongly interpreted and our theology must be adjusted to account for that, not to invent a new status of parenthood, Federal Headship, that tries to do an end run around these clearly established limits of guilt that are repeated over and over so those who miss them have no excuse, sigh.
ttruscott
Well-known member
No one is created dead spiritually but die when they sin against the law. Jacob and Esau were trying to murder each other in the womb over the rights of the first born so sin exists in the womb...therefore our conception or our birth cannot be before our descent into the enslavement of sin but after
I think this way:
this is reflected by calling us sheep that havegone astray: We are sheep in His flock until we go astray into sin. And then when we hear the call, we return to our Bishop and Shepherd. Before we left we are sheep. After we return we are sheep. So, if we are astray in sin at our birth, when did we go astray???
Did Christ lose us? No. Did He forget us? No. Then we must have rebelled against Him and run away into sin like the prodigal son, right? But sin in the womb suggests we ran from His flock into sin before our conception or our birth.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Yes - we inherited the corruption of death from Adam that dogs all sinners born on earth. The verse says we inherit death
epi: on, upon
Original Word: ἐπίPart of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: epi
Phonetic Spelling: (ep-ee')
Short Definition: on, to, against, on the basis of, at
Definition: on, to, against, on the basis of, at.
ON THE BASIS OF WE ARE ALL SINNERS...Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because / for that / on the basis that all sinned-- our sin caused our death, not Adam's, though Adam's death was passed on to all of us so that Christ could die once for all of us and not have to die once for each of us in our millions.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I do not think that the struggle felt in the womb of Rebecca had anything to do with anyone sinning:
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11).
Perhaps the following explanation is valid:
"And the children struggled together within her,.... When she was quick with child: this was some time before her delivery, and was not a common and ordinary motion felt by women in such circumstances, but an extraordinary one; the two children in her strove with each other, as if it was for mastery, or who should get out first before the proper time; which not only gave her great uneasiness of mind, but pain of body: this was an emblem of the future difference between those two children" (John Gill, Exposition of the Entire Bible, Commentary at Genesis 25:32)
Lon
Well-known member
Virtually all councils and creeds condemn Pelagianism based on several scriptures (also given in the link).
Ephesians 2:3 Psalm 51:5 Romans 3:10-12; 6:16
I believe a pelagian view literally ignores or debates against Paul's argument in Romans. With Pelagianism, The whole flow of Romans is disrupted. From the link, several Reformed councils have also repudiated Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism.
(Of further note, even the RC, often accused of semi-pelagianism, repudiates both pelagianism and semi-pelagianism)
Ephesians 2:3 Psalm 51:5 Romans 3:10-12; 6:16
I believe a pelagian view literally ignores or debates against Paul's argument in Romans. With Pelagianism, The whole flow of Romans is disrupted. From the link, several Reformed councils have also repudiated Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism.
(Of further note, even the RC, often accused of semi-pelagianism, repudiates both pelagianism and semi-pelagianism)
Problem with all that?
God put in Adam the power of reproduction; as He did in every creature.
Thus, it is not God creating the offspring of Adam but the reproductive system; that man might "be fruitful and multiply" as with "every herb bearing seed," and so on.
Adam fell. As a result; as with the offspring of a severe alcoholic; someone with HIV, etc; mankind is born "the children of (The) disobedience" - the apple, if you will; not falling far, from its' tree.
Or as King David had had to lament about the curse of sin he had been conceived in.
Or as Paul put as to "this body of death" of "no good dwelling in me."
"And so death passed upon all men...for have sinned...in Adam."
Man goes along his merry way, willing this and willing that. Unaware he is at enmity with God by one man's transgression.
Unaware that should he attempt to serve God, his indwelling natural bent against God is set off, and he finds that said nature has revived, his will...dying in...finding hinself unable to do the things that he would as to serving God in any way, shape, or form, nowhere even remotely on a level with the righteous standard of God. He finds his best...can only "come short of the glory of God."
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Did you notice what Paul said just a few verses earlier?:
"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" (Ro.7:9-11).
Paul is not speaking of "physical" death because he was alive physically when he wrote those words. He is speaking about breaking one of the Ten Commandments (v.7) and it was that which resulted in his "spiritual death."
In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary John A. Witmer writes, "As a result Paul 'died' spiritually (cf. 6:23a) under the sentence of judgment by the Law he had broken...so this sin deceived him...and 'put' him 'to death' (lit., 'killed' him), not physically but spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1983], 467).
Paul was alive spiritually before he sinned and as a result of his sin he died spiritually. That means that paul was not born spiritually dead.
It's not nice to add words to the Scriptures. Paul actually said, "...and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).
All men die spiritually as a result of their own sin--not because of Adam's sin.
Adam was condemn to die, and you who are of the expanded body of Adam remain under the death penalty that was imposed on Adam: For the body of Adam, (Mankind) will die.
ttruscott wrote......The child will not share the guilt of the parent...HUMAN KIND DOES NOT SHARE THE GUILT OF OUR PARENT, ADAM!!!
Please explain 1st Samuel 1-3; Samuel said to Saul, “I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the Lord. 2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel (Some 400 years ago) when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Amalekites who were destroyed were guilty of their own sins:
"And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed" (1 Sam.15:18).
:thumb: And neither was Jesus.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
That's right!
Since the Lord Jesus put on flesh and was made like us in all things (Heb.2:17) then if we emerge from the womb spiritually dead then He also would.
That idea is ludicrous!
ttruscott
Well-known member
Ineed. We were put under Adam's death / judgement, but not his sin as the scripture say no one will die for another's sins, only our own.
In light of the order to not judge a child for the sins of the father, this must refer to the judgement of a culture of sinners, the Amalekites, a judgement that was delayed but is now called due for all sinners in that culture. Holding the judgement in abeyance to visit it upon the sinners of a later generation is just not the same as killing a son who is innocent because his father sinned.
So does your ignoring the other verses I used to support my contentions mean you accept them or just can't answer? Like a GOD who is pure life cannot create death by making someone an evil sinner under judgment without their own choice to sin? And how it is more perfect to make the Bride evil and corrupt to then cure her and marry her when she is pure and holy??? These things are implied in our being sinners by Adam's choice to sin.