"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

[popsthebuilder]

Was the Word God? Is God immortal?

Did the Word become human? Are humans immortal?

Please explain why it is nonsensical.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)​

How is it nonsensical? The eternal GOD took on the form of man to suffer and be put to death by the hands of man so man can continue in sin and GOD can pay his own debt.

Makes total sense.

By the way eternal isn't mortal either

Just to be clear; I donot refute that the Christ is GOD. Just don't see the blood of Christ as being needed specifically for a payment to GOD (himself).

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[jamie]

How is it nonsensical? The eternal GOD took on the form of man to suffer and be put to death by the hands of man so man can continue in sin and GOD can pay his own debt.

God has given humanity six millennial days to do his own thing. Keep in mind humans were designed to sin.

During the six millennial days the Spirit has chosen a few to serve in the world government of the King.

When the King's government is implemented everyone will have been given his holy Spirit and sin will not be allowed.

This present evil age will soon end and a Day of Rest is on the horizon.

That's about as simple as it can get.

 

[popsthebuilder]

God has given humanity six millennial days to do his own thing. Keep in mind humans were designed to sin.

During the six millennial days the Spirit has chosen a few to serve in the world government of the King.

When the King's government is implemented everyone will have been given his holy Spirit and sin will not be allowed.

This present evil age will soon end and a Day of Rest is on the horizon.

That's about as simple as it can get.

Aaannnd you still didn't address my points. Never mind.

peace

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[chair]

Considering that the idea of "Original Sin" is based on two religious texts ("old" and "new" testaments), and on a particular interpretation of those texts to boot- it's fiction.

 

[S-word]

If you plant one seed, on life in a pristine environment, only to find years later that it was a toxic weed, and was choking the other life in the area, to kill that life that YOU PLANTED, YOU MUST KILL EVERY PLANT IT HAD BECOME.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason, Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it." Adam died at the age of 930 in the first day.

 

[S-word]

God has given humanity six millennial days to do his own thing. Keep in mind humans were designed to sin.

During the six millennial days the Spirit has chosen a few to serve in the world government of the King.

When the King's government is implemented everyone will have been given his holy Spirit and sin will not be allowed.

This present evil age will soon end and a Day of Rest is on the horizon.

That's about as simple as it can get.

The weekly Sabbath, said Paul, in Colossians 2: 17; was but a shadow of the reality in the future, which is the Great Sabbath, the Lords day of one thousand years.

From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason, Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it." Adam died at the age of 930 in the first day.
According to Jewish time, the first destruction of the Temple of Solomon, was 3338 AM, which is 3338 years from Adam. Our time for that destruction of the temple is 587 BC. So adding 587 to 3338, we see that from the birth of Adam to 1 BC=1AD there is 3925 years, add to that the current date, 2017, (3,925+2017=5,942) and we are now living in the 5,942nd year from the birth of Adam (These dates are very ambiguous) which leaves us another 59 years before the close of the 6th day and the beginning of the 7th, which is the great Sabbath, “The Day of The Lord” the seventh period of one thousand years from the day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that first day at the age of 930, which day begins after the greatest period of tribulation that this world has ever seen.
This coming period of tribulation is said to be so severe, that if it were not for the intervention of the Lord, no flesh would survive. We are almost at the close of the sixth day, and soon comes the great tribulation, which is the war to end all wars, after which the Sabbath will dawn, but when? Nobody knows the exact date.

One of the worst tribulations that the earth has suffered in recent times occured some 75,000 years ago with the Toba super eruption, which was a super volcanic eruption that occurred sometime between 69,000 and 77,000 years ago at Lake Toba (Sumatra Indonesia). It is recognised as one of earth’s largest eruptions.

Thousands of cubic kilometres of material would have been blasted out into the stratosphere blocking out the light all over the world, turning the sun and moon into huge blood red orbs and causing the earth’s temperature to drop some 21% and it would possibly have been a thousand years, before rainbows could form in our atmosphere again.

The related catastrophe theory holds that this event plunged the planet into a 6 to 10 year volcanic winter and possibly an additional 1,000 year cooling episode. This change in temperature resulted in the world’s proto-human population being reduced to 10,000 or even a mere 1,000 breeding pairs, creating a bottleneck in human evolution.

AND THAT IS NOTHING COMPARED TO THAT WHICH IS SOON TO OCCUR.

 

[patrick jane]

SOCK

 

[S-word]

SO! Your point being, WHAT??

 

[Lon]

You have proven over and over that you have no interest in trying to defend your beliefs in regard to these things concerning "spiritual" death and I can understand why. Instead, you cling to your ideas even though you are not even willing to try to defend them
.

You'll have to forgive him, he is used to students who do homework. This isn't necessarily a slam on you, but laymen are different than students. I 'think' I explain things better to laymen, but the explanation can get sloppy at times, such is the transition. AMR explains things exactly the way I hear them in seminary. I'd have a heck of a time passing his quizzes and tests. There is a lot covered. He does defend, it is just with a firehose rather than a garden hose. Lest you go to one of his links, beware the pressure and volume. You will be overwhelmed with the direct answers, should you choose.

Can I ask one question that I think will really help this discussion and the answer you are looking for? If a man never sinned (let us say it is posslble for a moment), Would he/she go to heaven to be with God in your thinking? Would he have had to been reading his/her Bible voraciously to accomplish it? I'm trying to get you to see the other side of the coin that few Christians that need a Savior, miss. It is important. Romans 10:14,15 Does that man/woman need a Savior yet? Ephesians 2:12

Considering that the idea of "Original Sin" is based on two religious texts ("old" and "new" testaments), and on a particular interpretation of those texts to boot- it's fiction.

There you go, Jerry. You have a Jew who isn't much into his own books even, telling you it is a Biblical idea actually with base in both the Old and New Testament. Nevermind for a moment he doesn't believe it, he knows its there....even a non-practicing Jew. :up: (just another support that this indeed the way we are born). -Lon

 

[S-word]

Your six millennial days are coming to their close, soon begins the great Sabbath, the reality of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow. The Day of the Lord, the 7th day of one thousand years that he has fixed in which he will judge the whole world with justice, of which day is spoken in Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MANhe has CHOSEN.He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MANfrom death.

 

[jamie]

Aaannnd you still didn't address my points. Never mind.

Well, it's not that I didn't try. I just don't understand what it is you don't understand.

 

[S-word]

Humans were designed to sin, it's perfectly natural, otherwise we wouldn't need God's Spirit in addition to our own human spirit.

All have sinned, and all must pay the blood price for sin then go off into judgement.

Anyone can die physically, but spiritual death is the result of sin. Righteousness can be imputed, but sin can't. Had Jesus sinned he would have died for his sin, not ours. The Jewish leaders imputed sin to Jesus, but it was a false accusation, sin cannot be imputed.

All must die the first death, which is that of the body, in which they, the invisible mind/spirit had developed

When Jesus died he died spiritually, not for his sin but as Creator God he assumed the sin of his creation, his life was of more value than the lives of all his creation combined. The Word became human to do just that and he did it well, nary a complaint.

1st Peter 3: 18-20.He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 19and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. 20These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building his boat. The few people in the boat — eight in all — were saved by the water.

 

[S-word]

1.
Originally Posted by jamie

Humans were designed to sin, it's perfectly natural, otherwise we wouldn't need God's Spirit in addition to our own human spirit.

S-word.......All have sinned, and all must pay the blood price for sin then go off into judgement.

Jamie........Anyone can die physically, but spiritual death is the result of sin. Righteousness can be imputed, but sin can't. Had Jesus sinned he would have died for his sin, not ours. The Jewish leaders imputed sin to Jesus, but it was a false accusation, sin cannot be imputed.

S-word....... All must die the first death, which is that of the body, in which they, the invisible mind/spirit had developed. And the man Jesus, who was born of the seed of Adam, did die for the inherited sin.

Jamie.......When Jesus died he died spiritually, not for his sin but as Creator God he assumed the sin of his creation, his life was of more value than the lives of all his creation combined. The Word became human to do just that and he did it well, nary a complaint.

S-word.........1st Peter 3: 18-20.He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 19and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. 20These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building his boat. The few people in the boat — eight in all — were saved by the water.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can I ask one question that I think will really help this discussion and the answer you are looking for? If a man never sinned (let us say it is posslble for a moment), Would he/she go to heaven to be with God in your thinking? Would he have had to been reading his/her Bible voraciously to accomplish it? I'm trying to get you to see the other side of the coin that few Christians that need a Savior, miss. It is important. Romans 10:14,15 Does that man/woman need a Savior yet? Ephesians 2:12

Greetings Lon!

In the following passage Paul says that the commandment was "ordained to life":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Sir Robert Anderson says:

" 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' The question was framed by a professional theologian, to test the orthodoxy of the great Rabbi of Nazareth. For evidently it was rumoured that the new Teacher was telling the people of a short road to Heaven. And the answer given was clear - no other answer, indeed, is possible; for what a man inherits is his by right - eternal life is the reward and goal of a perfect life on earth. A perfect life, mark - the standard being perfect love to God and man" (Anderson, Redemption Truths [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], 11).​

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. But as we both know, at some point in time all men decide to go their own way instead of God's way--the perils of free will.

These things tell us that men are NOT born dead in sin. If a man emerges from the womb dead spiritually then no amount of good works could save him. If he is going to justified in the eyes of God the penalty must be paid--he must be justified by death, "justified by blood."

 

[jamie]

1st Peter 3: 18-20.He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 19and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. 20These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building his boat. The few people in the boat — eight in all — were saved by the water.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)​

So Christ was put to death but then he was resurrected (made alive) by the Spirit.

How was Christ made alive? BY the Spirit.

Then what?

Then he preached to some imprisoned spirit beings.

When were they imprisoned?

In the days of Noah.

Is that when he preached to them?

No, he died and was resurrected and then preached to the disobedient spirit beings.

Dead men are dead, they don't preach.

 

[Lon]

These things tell us that men are NOT born dead in sin. If a man emerges from the womb dead spiritually then no amount of good works could save him. If he is going to justified in the eyes of God the penalty must be paid--he must be justified by death, "justified by blood."

Again, just a thought for pondering: It seems to me, children are born not knowing God. Consider: I do not believe that child could ever know God without the Lord Jesus Christ. If your concern is about children dying before coming to Christ, I believe in an age of accountability but ultimately have to leave this in God's hands. I don't want to make a faulty theological conclusion based on my fears or doubts, but rather on what scripture says (not that this necessarily applies to you).

I think the short is, there are sins of omission and that something is genuinely broken between us and God when we are born. Consider too, that even 'if' a person could live sinlessly (I don't think it possible given the above), he/she would die yet and imo, is born spiritually dead. They would still die naturally as well since man's days were numbered by God. It seems, without being overtly challenging to you, that we are not born without the curse of sin. The evidence, to me, points opposite; for your time and inspection and in His service.


Thanks for your time in consideration. -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Again, just a thought for pondering: It seems to me, children are born not knowing God. Consider: I do not believe that child could ever know God without the Lord Jesus Christ. If your concern is about children dying before coming to Christ, I believe in an age of accountability but ultimately have to leave this in God's hands.

The things which I said are referring not just to children but instead all of mankind. The verses which I cited demonstrates that no one is born in a state of being that can be described as being spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

Consider too, that even 'if' a person could live sinlessly (I don't think it possible given the above), he/she would die yet and imo, is born spiritually dead.

The Scriptures declare, in theory, that if a men lives a sinless life then he will receive eternal life. And that would be impossible if he was born spiritually dead.

They would still die naturally as well since man's days were numbered by God. It seems, without being overtly challenging to you, that we are not born without the curse of sin.

Yes, the curse of Adam's sin passes to earth but only in regard to physical life. It was his fault that men no longer have access to the very thing which allowed a man to live forever--the Tree of Life (Gen.3:23-24).

However, none of this has anything to do with spiritual death. Men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not because of Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to them.

 

[jamie]

However, none of this has anything to do with spiritual death. Men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not because of Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to them.

:thumb: Our sins are imputed to Jesus, the Savior, the Redeemer.

 

[Lon]

The things which I said are referring not just to children but instead all of mankind. The verses which I cited demonstrates that no one is born in a state of being that can be described as being spiritually dead. If a person is born spiritually dead then no amount of law-keeping could possibly bring eternal life and no amount of law-keeping could serve to justify a person before God. That is because once a person falls under the sentence of spiritual death then if he is ever going to be justified it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be "justified by death," he must be "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

Again, imho, God would be able to walk with man and we wouldn't all have been banned from the Tree of life and the Garden, if a child were born without sin. Wouldn't the answer to sin, not be the Lord Jesus Christ, but simply taking the children from Adam and Eve and putting them in the garden? Wouldn't that have fixed the problem? If you are right, wouldn't it still?

The Scriptures declare, in theory, that if a men lives a sinless life then he will receive eternal life. And that would be impossible if he was born spiritually dead. Yes, the curse of Adam's sin passes to earth but only in regard to physical life. It was his fault that men no longer have access to the very thing which allowed a man to live forever--the Tree of Life (Gen.3:23-24).

Wasn't the Lord Jesus Christ slain from the foundation of the world? I realize most are dispensational, but when I was a dispensationalist, we believed the unfolding plan of God was always about trusting in the redemption of the Lord Jesus Christ and never was about the law. I realize there is a rift, even among dispensationalists regarding this. Some believed in a genuine kingdom offer. I believe it was a way of teaching all mankind that we all need a Savior, but there, my whole systematic theology points to man born infected totally by sin. IOW, I see any negotiating, not as man capable, but as teaching him he/she is incapable and so read your given scriptures in that light. This particular subject is a hard one to come to terms across the isle because of how strongly we hold to what we believe about this, but I appreciate your discussing it.

However, none of this has anything to do with spiritual death. Men die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not because of Adam's spiritual death has been imputed to them.

Well, rather than oppose you confrontationally, I'm seeking to discuss it in a meaningful way. There are several doctrines that polarize people. Most evangelicals do not share your view but a good minority of Catholics and Orthodox do. It 'tends' to lend to 'works' and cooperative salvation in application. I'm not sure any of this is a revelation to you. I'm sure you've had nearly identical discussions in the past, so thank you for yet again going through it with me. -Lon

 

[ok doser]

Men die spiritually as a result of their own sin ..

jerry, i don't want to sidetrack this, but if you wouldn't mind entertaining a quick question

can children sin?

at what age does their sinful behavior count?



ok, that's two questions