"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

[Jerry Shugart]

Do you believe the Savior did not know the natural human mind cannot be subject to God's law?

Once a man sins then he is not subject to God's law. But we read this about a man's mind before he sins:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

 

[jamie]

Once a man sins then he is not subject to God's law. But we read this about a man's mind before he sins:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

Do you believe Paul contradicted himself when he said it's impossible for the carnal mind to be subject to God's law?

What other mistakes do you believe Paul made?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Are there other mistakes you believe Paul made?

I quoted Romans which I thought Paul was responsible for so I wasn't pointing out a mistake so much as showing that "carnal" and "natural" are not strictly synonymous even within Romans.

People like to conflate natural with carnal, but we see by scripture that in some cases the natural man, being without the teachings of the law per say, still has the GOD given capacity to know of the law written on the heart,and to abide by it.

Christ showed and taught the way to GOD, that way isn't to wallow in knowing sin as if the Christ preaches that all is acceptable in the sight of GOD.

peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Are there other mistakes you believe Paul made?

Paul's mistakes? More like erroneous interpretation of plainly stated truths for the benefit of self.

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[popsthebuilder]

Do you believe Paul contradicted himself when he said it's impossible for the carnal mind to be subject to God's law?

What other mistakes do you believe Paul made?

car·nal

?kärnl/

adjective

relating to physical, especially sexual, needs and activities.

"carnal desire"

synonyms:sexual,*sensual,*erotic,*lustful,*lascivious,*libidinous,*lecherous,*licentious;*

physical,*bodily,corporeal,*fleshly

"his carnal desires"




nat·u·ral

?naCH(?)r?l/

adjective

1.

existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind.

"carrots contain a natural antiseptic that fights bacteria"

2.

of or in agreement with the character or makeup of, or circumstances surrounding, someone or something.

"sharks have no natural ene



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[randomvim]

Once a man sins then he is not subject to God's law. But we read this about a man's mind before he sins:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

How do you use the word subject?

If I would suspect correctly, to be subject to God's law is to say God's law applies to that person.



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[Jerry Shugart]

Do you believe Paul contradicted himself when he said it's impossible for the carnal mind to be subject to God's law?

No contradiction. One word is a noun and the other an adjective. And both words have various meanings.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

How do you use the word subject?

Being under the influence of the law.

 

[jamie]

I quoted Romans which I thought Paul was responsible for so I wasn't pointing out a mistake so much as showing that "carnal" and "natural" are not strictly synonymous even within Romans.

Carnal G4561 σάρξ sarx sarx Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]). Total KJV occurrences: 151 (Strong's Dictionary)

Natural G5591 ψυχικός psuchikos psoo-khee-kos' From G5590; sensitive that is, animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): - natural, sensual.
Total KJV occurrences: 6 (Strong's Dictionary)​

Which comes first, the natural or the spiritual?

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:42-46)​

Did You Know?
In Christianity in past centuries, carnal was often used as the opposite of spiritual, describing what are sometimes called "the pleasures of the flesh". Thus, gluttony--the consumption of excessive food and drink--was a deadly carnal sin, whereas the holiest monks and hermits might eat hardly anything and never touch wine. Today carnal has a somewhat old-fashioned sound; when we use it, we generally mean simply "sexual". (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carnal)​

Are you going to now claim the human body is not sown in corruption?

 

[Nick M]

I have already explained what the sin which Adam committed that lead to all men dying

You don't need to explain what Moses clearly stated. Adam listened to his wife instead of God.

Through one man did condemnation spread to all. The catholics understand this, why can't you?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Carnal G4561 σάρξ sarx sarx Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]). Total KJV occurrences: 151 (Strong's Dictionary)

Natural G5591 ψυχικός psuchikos psoo-khee-kos' From G5590; sensitive that is, animate (in distinction on the one hand from G4152, which is the higher or renovated nature; and on the other from G5446, which is the lower or bestial nature): - natural, sensual.
Total KJV occurrences: 6 (Strong's Dictionary)​

Which comes first, the natural or the spiritual?

So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:42-46)​

Did You Know?
In Christianity in past centuries, carnal was often used as the opposite of spiritual, describing what are sometimes called "the pleasures of the flesh". Thus, gluttony--the consumption of excessive food and drink--was a deadly carnal sin, whereas the holiest monks and hermits might eat hardly anything and never touch wine. Today carnal has a somewhat old-fashioned sound; when we use it, we generally mean simply "sexual". (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carnal)​

Are you going to now claim the human body is not sown in corruption?

Not at all; but I will reiterate my initial points that

(A) man is naturally imbued with the potential for good and evil

(B) carnal and natural are not the same thing

We can see that carnal has to do with self, where as truth is simple and has to do with all. As in if people weren't perusing their own ends (carnality/greed) they would stop insisting that I am leading and or lead astray all while sowing confusion themselves, and see that I speak of the creation of GOD (all) and it's potential attributes that are given by GOD (naturally) and shown to us by the Christ (spiritually).

Carnal has to do with desire.

Desire is want

Want revolves around self

The same is greed

We are all made up of physical bodies and minds.

What is at enmity with GOD is greed, not our GOD given vessels or minds even.

If you deny these things then fine. But I would hope that if you don't out right deny them, then maybe we can discuss them further. I am no teacher and look forward to any actual insight you might bring to my simple understanding.

peace

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[jamie]

If you deny these things then fine. But I would hope that if you don't out right deny them, then maybe we can discuss them further. I am no teacher and look forward to any actual insight you might bring to my simple understanding.

Just as long as we understand scripture says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?"

 

[jamie]

I am no teacher and look forward to any actual insight you might bring to my simple understanding.

:thumb: Same here.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

No one is a sinner until he sins. And until someone knows the difference between what is good or bad then to him it is not a sin:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

It is obvious that infants do not know the difference between what is good or bad so they have not sinned and are not born in sin.

Right. I agree. But I do think there is an element of truth that we come into a world surrounded by sin and are thus "born in sin". Too often people allow that sin to define them because they have not consciously experienced their divinity.


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[Jerry Shugart]

Right. I agree. But I do think there is an element of truth that we come into a world surrounded by sin and are thus "born in sin".

I guess you could put it that way.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Just as long as we understand scripture says, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?"

Those who can know it are those who strive to negate wants of self when working out there course. Those who silently do what they actually know is good due to the selfless conscience, the Holy Spirit, and the heart, not in spite of them. In spite of greed or carnality. We still haven't cleared up the carnal natural thing and now you look to add to the confusion of the masses by mentioning singular verses out of context in order to derail what I said yet again?

The law is written on the hearts of the heathen and of all men. It can be, and is negated by greed, the powers that be, and societal norms, though ultimately none will change what GOD has established.

Genesis: 8. 21. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. -

We see here the word "youth" and not "since before conception", or "before the foundation of the earth"

Leviticus: 26. 40. If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 41. And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42. Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 44. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. 45. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. 46. These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Strange; we see here, even in the ot that the uncircumcised heart is capable of being humbled and turning towards GOD.

Numbers: 15. 39. And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Numbers: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.

Here we see the difference is greed as shown by emphasis on "your own" as opposed to of the Holy Spirit.

I know many may claim the Holy Spirit only came after the Christ, but I would contend that it was understood after the Christ or abounded, not that man was bereft of it or the selfless conscience.

Deuteronomy: 8. 5. Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.

Why would any be instructed to seek within themselves if they were wholly and helplessly utterly corrupted from the start?

Why would a caring creator create a damned creation?

Deuteronomy: 10. 16. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

For good measure in case any silly folks want to insist that circumsision is literal, or the law isn't written on the heart.

Deuteronomy: 30. 14. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


I'm going to stop.

I'm stirring up contention and that isn't what I should do.

You are right. Natural man is at enmity with GOD. There is a capacity to naturally do right or at very least know it, but there is also a natural inclination for some to knowingly go against what is good, but at very least for all to act selfishly as opposed to selflessly.

It brings to mind the second command of GOD, and how people misconstrue it to mean love yourself.

I really no longer wish to contend, and it wasn't even my initial drive. My two points still stand as do other things I have stated on this thread, but we do have a natural inclination to sin.

peace

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[jamie]

We have all eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[S-word]

Those who can know it are those who strive to negate wants of self when working out there course. Those who silently do what they actually know is good due to the selfless conscience, the Holy Spirit, and the heart, not in spite of them. In spite of greed or carnality. We still haven't cleared up the carnal natural thing and now you look to add to the confusion of the masses by mentioning singular verses out of context in order to derail what I said yet again?

The law is written on the hearts of the heathen and of all men. It can be, and is negated by greed, the powers that be, and societal norms, though ultimately none will change what GOD has established.

Genesis: 8. 21. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. -

We see here the word "youth" and not "since before conception", or "before the foundation of the earth"

Leviticus: 26. 40. If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; 41. And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity: 42. Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. 44. And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. 45. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. 46. These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

Strange; we see here, even in the ot that the uncircumcised heart is capable of being humbled and turning towards GOD.

Numbers: 15. 39. And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Numbers: That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.

Here we see the difference is greed as shown by emphasis on "your own" as opposed to of the Holy Spirit.

I know many may claim the Holy Spirit only came after the Christ, but I would contend that it was understood after the Christ or abounded, not that man was bereft of it or the selfless conscience.

Deuteronomy: 8. 5. Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.

Why would any be instructed to seek within themselves if they were wholly and helplessly utterly corrupted from the start?

Why would a caring creator create a damned creation?

Deuteronomy: 10. 16. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

For good measure in case any silly folks want to insist that circumsision is literal, or the law isn't written on the heart.

Deuteronomy: 30. 14. But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


I'm going to stop.

I'm stirring up contention and that isn't what I should do.

You are right. Natural man is at enmity with GOD. There is a capacity to naturally do right or at very least know it, but there is also a natural inclination for some to knowingly go against what is good, but at very least for all to act selfishly as opposed to selflessly.

It brings to mind the second command of GOD, and how people misconstrue it to mean love yourself.

I really no longer wish to contend, and it wasn't even my initial drive. My two points still stand as do other things I have stated on this thread, but we do have a natural inclination to sin.

peace

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popsthebuilder wrote......I know many may claim the Holy Spirit only came after the Christ, but I would contend that it was understood after the Christ or abounded, not that man was bereft of it or the selfless conscience.

S-word.........Amplified version Galatians 4: 29, “And Yet at that time, the child born according to the flesh (Ishmael) despised and persecuted Him (Isaac) who was born according to the promise and the workings/power of the Holy Spirit.

Isaac, a prototype of Jesus, was born of the union between Abraham and his half sister Sarah, The children of Terah by different mothers, according to the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Jesus, who was born of God's promise, was the child of Mary and Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios/Heli of two different mothers.

The father of Jesus was not Joseph the son of Jacob, but Joseph the son of Heli. Joseph was and still remains a very common name among the Jews.

 

[S-word]

popsthebuilder wrote.......I know many may claim the Holy Spirit only came after the Christ, but I would contend that it was understood after the Christ or abounded, not that man was bereft of it or the selfless conscience.

S-word.........Amplified version Galatians 4: 29, “And Yet at that time, the child born according to the flesh (Ishmael) despised and persecuted Him (Isaac) who was born according to the promise and the workings/power of the Holy Spirit.

Isaac, a prototype of Jesus, was born of the union between Abraham and his half sister Sarah, Who were both sired by Terah of different mothers, according to the power of the Holy Spirit.”

Jesus was born of God's promise to Mary and her half brother Joseph, the children of Alexander Helios, also called Heli, of different mothers.

Joseph was, and remains a very common name among the Jews, and Joseph ben Heli, the biological father of Jesus, should not be confused with Joseph ben Jacob the step father of Jesus, who married the already pregnant Mary and had no sexual relations with her until after she had given birth to the Jesus, the first born of her sons and daughters.

 

[S-word]

Sorry about that, don't know how it happened, but there you go, two of the same post.