Are you saying then, that once an indicidual sins...they no longer need to adhere to all laws of God at all? we no are no longer expected to follow it?
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"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
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there is no biological father to Jesus.
And Mary had no other children.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
No! That is not what I am saying. Those who are dead spiritually as a result of their own sins are not influenced by law. They prefer to go their own way and not God's way. Here Paul speaks of the condition of the Christians before they were saved:
"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness" (Ro.6:19-20).
Unless God calls them to repent from dead works.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
:chuckle:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you agree with the Calvinists that all men sin for this reason?:
"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Lon
Well-known member
At best, a presupposition. Can you build an entire counter-orthodox position upon such guessing? Indicators seem to prove out that pelagianism and semi-pelagianism were correctly ousted from Christianity proper. I'm not sure "of course" is going to be a strong enough assault on the church doctrines proper. It is really going to take a careful dismantling of current understandings of scripture. Some of this goes back to infant baptism as well. Those particular churches will never get on-board with Pelagianism because their issue is that children must be baptized in Christ for salvation. On the other side, those who don't do infant but professional baptisms, or not at all (MAD), still are very much against works-salvation. That's pretty much the whole of Christianity. I just don't see a rise or acceptance of Pelagianism. :think:
I would agree and disagree. In some maners, yeah. I can see how a person devout to their sin will not desire God. even under their own claim.
But what is law? We all pertain some natural desire to help others or act in ways that are good even when not noticing that good. For example, donating to a cancer foundation. That is charity even from a person who denies God.
Considering what is law could help describe your point of view. A means of judgement or similar to "law of nature," a basis for our action/being?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
My idea is not a guess but is found in the Scriptures. we know that adam was created in a "mortal" body because once he was denied access to the three Of Life he passed away. it was only by eating of that tree which would have enabled him to live for ever:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).
Lon
Well-known member
Read it. It was only after sin that they couldn't eat of it. There are good reasons pelagianism is rejected by Christendom. The whole story of the Jews is about Pelagianism vs. Trust in God. Abraham's Faith was credited to him for righteousness. Christians believe the OT is a whole story AGAINST Pelagianism. Look at Chair for example: He, a Jew, is the other Pelagian on TOL. I never taught my children to lie, in fact, I taught them to tell the truth and led by example. They were not Tabula Rasa's (look at the list there...no Christians listed, but every other religion and secular humanist is).
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Yes.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but that does not change the fact that their bodies were from the beginning "mortal" and if they wouldn't have sinned they would still have to eat of the Tree of Life in order to live for ever:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).
It is obvious that Adam did not possess an "immortal" body from the beginning because if he did he would never have died physically.
The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which, are celestial and Spiritual.
The third Adam is the terrestrial as he was before the fall. This Adam was an androgene, when first created, it had a glorious simulacrum or light body.
The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the Fall, when he was then clothed with animal skin, flesh, nerves, etc.
He then had the animal power of reproduction and continuance of species, but in him was still some of the Light of all the preceding Adams.
Perhaps it is that light within the body of Adam/mankind, that will be the cause of those who in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, shall be translated from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of brilliant and blinding Light, like that of our brother Jesus who met Saul on the road to Damascus.
In his new glorious body of brilliant and blinding light, He, on the road to Damascus, answered Saul's question, "Who are you Lord?" with these words, "I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute."
Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.
And Jesus our brother, was given divine glory and now sits in the throne of our Father, and all the chosen ones who have born the image of the first Adam, shall also bear the IMAGE of Jesus, "The Second Adam." For there is a new creation of bodies of Glorious and blinding Light that is the new Temple of our Lord, which is to replace God's old tabernacle (Mankind) as the ruler on this earth of all creation.
First, "MAN" (man 'enosh') in English, mortal human beings) was created a little lower than the angels, then he is crowned with glory and all creation is placed beneath his feet. All creation is placed beneath the feet of MAN (man 'enosh) in English, mortal human beings) WHO IS CROWNED WITH GLORY, we have not yet seen this happen.
But we have seen Jesus, the first born from the dead, who has won the victory and was given divine glory by our heavenly Father and saviour, and is now incontestably divine and sits in the heavenly throne of Godhead: and who, in Revelation 3: 21; invites those, who win the victory also, to sit with him in our Father's throne of Godhead within the creation. And all creation Visible and invisible, which, according to Paul, includes even the angels, will bow at their feet.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?
First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).
Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.
So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.
Thanks!
First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).
Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.
So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.
Thanks!
ttruscott
Well-known member
No, not evil acts but good acts done to bring salvation upon himself. They are worthless for salvation (dead) even if not evil.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
EXACTLY!
It is the evolving spirit of God’s Son, who is developing within the body of EVE, the expanded and pregnant androgynous body of Mankind, which body must endure great pains and tribulation before she bears, “The Son of Man,” the new androgynous body of light beings that evolves from mankind.
I tell you a sacred secret, we shall not all fall asleep in death, but shall be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, from bodies of corruptible matter into glorious bodies of brilliant and blinding light.
The Kabbala describes four Adams, the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual. The third Adam is the Terrestrial Adam as he was before the fall and this Adam was also an androgene. It had when first created, a glorious simulacrum or light body.
The fourth Adam was the third Adam as he was after the fall, when he was clothed in animal skin, nerves muscles blood and bone ect. He had the animal power of reproduction and continuance of species, but in him was still some of the Light of all the preceding Adams.
And it is that light, which will cause the translation of the chosen ones, from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of brilliant and blinding light.