Original Sin and the Calvinists

[Right Divider]

I just quoted Paul who quoted Hosea didn't I. Can't you read?

Talking about Israel, yes. Nothing about Gentiles "becoming the 10 tribes".

 

[Epoisses]

Talking about Israel, yes. Nothing about Gentiles "becoming the 10 tribes".

Here's the quote again: Paul unmistakably interposes the Gentiles into the house of Israel.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

Hosea chap. 1 and 2 referencing the fallen house of Israel that would be raised up in faith at a future time.

 

[Right Divider]

Here's the quote again: Paul unmistakably interposes the Gentiles into the house of Israel.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

Hosea chap. 1 and 2 referencing the fallen house of Israel that would be raised up in faith at a future time.

Paul does, sometimes, use scripture to describe a spiritual meaning that is different than the original context. This does NOT mean that Gentiles "become the 10 tribes" but simply that they will be included as "children of the living God".

Here is another example of the same principle:

Rom 8:35-37 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (8:36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (8:37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. ​

Is Paul calling all believers sheep? NAY!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Believing Jews fall into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles fall into the house of Israel.

You just ignored the fact that at Jeremiah 31:31-34 the fathers of those who will belong to the house of Israel in the future are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Since their fathers are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that means that they will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

Why do you refuse to address these facts? Do you just not believe what is written in the OT or what?

 

[Epoisses]

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

You both reject Paul like all Dispensational flesh worshippers. The house of Israel are said to cease and be no more by Hosea:

And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hosea 1:4-6

In the 1st century the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin) was the only ethnic house remaining. The house of Israel was scattered among the nations and intermingled with the Gentiles like the Samaritans. The Jews didn't consider the Samaritans to be the tribes of Israel and despised them. Many of the Samaritans who believed on Christ were of the lost tribes of Israel who were not God's people but now are called God's people.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

E The house of Israel are said to cease and be no more by Hosea:

The Scriptures reveal that both houses will be restored in the future:

"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ez.37:21-22).​

As I have already shown, the fathers of those who will receive the promise of the New Covenant are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so those who will receive that promises will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But you obviously refuse to believe what is written at Jeremiah 31:31-34 because you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures themselves say. It is those who "believe God" who are saved (Ro.4:3) and believing what some men say about the Scriptures saves no one!

 

[Epoisses]

The Scriptures reveal that both houses will be restored in the future:

"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ez.37:21-22).​

As I have already shown, the fathers of those who will receive the promise of the New Covenant are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so those who will receive that promises will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But you obviously refuse to believe what is written at Jeremiah 31:31-34 because you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures themselves say. It is those who "believe God" who are saved (Ro.4:3) and believing what some men say about the Scriptures saves no one!

The spiritual houses will be restored. The ethnic house of Israel ceased 700 years before Christ. All the disciples including Paul were from the house of Judah and two sets of disciples were brothers so it is physically impossible that all 12 tribes were represented. Brothers would have come from the same tribe.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The spiritual houses will be restored. The ethnic house of Israel ceased 700 years before Christ.

I will repeat what I said earlier so that everyone reading this thread can see that you refuse to believe what is said in these verses:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).​

The "fathers" of the ones who will receive the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the ones who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that means that the offspring of those fathers will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So in the future all of the house of Israel and all of the house of Judah which will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they will all, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved.

You have not even attempted to address these facts. All I see from you is a heart of unbelief. Instead of believing what is revealed in this passage you cling to the fables invented by some people.

 

[God's Truth]

As far as other men can see, if a Christian does not have good works to go along with his faith then that faith is a dead faith because it does not result in good works. But earlier in the same epistle james tells us exactly how a person is born of God:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

That scripture proves what I say and disproves you. That scripture say that the truth gives us rebirth. But you are not preaching truth that faith alone is dead.

Peter says the same thing:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

You have been given many chances to prove that the gospel demands that in order to be saved one must obey but so far you have come up empty!

You are dishonest. I gave you many scriptures saying we have to obey, that we have to repent of our sins.

Of course you are not born again or else you would actually believe what Peter wrote there!

You have verified yourself as not saved.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

There is only one way to get out of the condemnation that you are in, and you would have to do what Jesus the Way says.

You will have to change your heart and humble yourself like a little child. Can you do that?

You will have to be fearful of God, and tell Him of the sins you did and then repent of those sins.

You will have to also have a forgiving heart yourself, or you will not be saved and you will be as a stiff man whose bones are wasting away.

Psalm 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! 3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long.

You have a lot to repent of, for you go against His Truth.

We were discussing how a person receives the Holy Spirit and you said that it is received by obedience. I say that it is by faith and that is exactly what Paul says:

Paul doesn't go against Jesus.

The Lord rebukes you.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and take up residence with him.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).​

Show us that you really believe what is written in the Bible and tell us how the Spirit is received.

By obedience or by faith?

Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works.

I told you that before but you ignore it because your heart is like stone and your bones are stiff and you don’t love God more than your false doctrines that you hold onto.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are dishonest. I gave you many scriptures saying we have to obey, that we have to repent of our sins.

You are dishonest because that it not what I said. I said that we are saved by believing the gospel and you have been given many opportunities to prove that the gospel declares that we must obey! And you have not given even one instance where the gospel says that we must obey!

Instead of confessing the truth that the gospel says nothing about obeying you pervert what I actually said in a desperate attempt to change the subject!

Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works.

Once again you are being dishonest. I say that a person receives the Spirit through faith and you say that it comes to those who obey. Then I quoted these words of Paul to prove what I said is true:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).​

Instead of actually answering Paul's words there you dishonestly try to change the subject by saying that "Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works."

Show us that you can actualkly be honest and answer Paul's question here:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).​

If you refuse to answer my discussion with you is over because you will prove once again that you do not have an honest bone in your body!

 

[God's Truth]

You are dishonest because that it not what I said. I said that we are saved by believing the gospel and you have been given many opportunities to prove that the gospel declares that we must obey! And you have not given even one instance where the gospel says that we must obey!

Instead of confessing the truth that the gospel says nothing about obeying you pervert what I actually said in a desperate attempt to change the subject!



Once again you are being dishonest. I say that a person receives the Spirit through faith and you say that it comes to those who obey. Then I quoted these words of Paul to prove what I said is true:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).​

Instead of actually answering Paul's words there you dishonestly try to change the subject by saying that "Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works."

Show us that you can actualkly be honest and answer Paul's question here:

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).​

If you refuse to answer my discussion with you is over because you will prove once again that you do not have an honest bone in your body!

You do not address the scriptures and explanations I give because it disproves your ridiculous beliefs.

Tell me why you would rather choose false doctrines than God's Truth?

You are dishonest you know I gave you many scriptures and took the time to be careful with you.

Tell me what the Galatians did for Paul to rebuke them? Were they trying to obey Jesus too much, or were they rebuked for trying to get cleaned/justified by doing the ceremonial works? Let's start there.

Be brave and be ready to give up your nothing but falseness doctrines.

God does not like cowards.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[God's Truth]

Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.…


That is the Galatians observing the ceremonial days.


Galatians 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.


That is about the Galatians being talked into getting circumcised, which is a ceremonial/purification work.

Show one scripture where Paul rebukes the Galatians for obeying.