Origin of the Cross

[CherubRam]

How about the bronze serpent raised up on a pole by Moses?
If the "snake" bit you, you had to look to the brazen serpent to be healed.

That is parabolic of Christ.

 

[CherubRam]

Yet another fact that proves people prefer a pagan fable to a fact. Stake and impaled or hanged are correct. Cross and crucifixion are a fiction.

If Christ would have been hung on a actual cross, the scriptures would have made it known. As it is today, the word "cross" has been added, and is not in the original writings.

 

[CherubRam]

Id say its VERY important seeing as organized Christianity has promoted the use of a cross for 1700 or so years. The cross after all is a mainstay of Christendom.
Firstly the origins of the cross are pagan. That's an established and well known fact, as the cross predates Christianity by close to 2000 years. Secondly idol worship was strictly forbidden among the Jews. So even if Jesus had died on a cross A) Why would you want to venerate the object he was killed with (If a friend of yours was killed with a knife would you venerate the knife in remembrance of him?) and B) Veneration of the cross is idol worship. So not only is the cross of pagan origin and profane to God, worship of it is idolatrous too, and its use is to be found NOWHERE in early Christianity of 1AD.

Quote: "Veneration of the cross is idol worship" That is correct. I wonder how many Christians ever think of that?

 

[SonOfCaleb]

Quote: "Veneration of the cross is idol worship" That is correct. I wonder how many Christians ever think of that?

They don't. Worship of the cross and idolatry in general is simply too prevalent and too well entrenched for worshipers to even care. Most have an apathetic indifference as somewhat evidenced in this thread.
In addition Christendoms leaders encourage this false paganism. Thus as Jesus said the sheep have "blind guides" leading them.
The reality is even if Jesus did die on a cross anyone using the cross in worship is committing gross pagan idolatry which actually venerates Satan who is the originator of false worship. The cross in actuality is an anti-Christ symbol. Those that deny Christ deny his father also, God. The seriousness of this should not be understated.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Origin of the Cross


A tradition of the Church which our fathers have inherited, was the adoption of the words "cross" and "crucify." These words are nowhere to be found in the Greek of the New Testament. These words are mis-translations, a "later rendering," of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says, "STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pole or stake...Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pole, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea (Babylon), and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)...By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the pretige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted..."

Dr. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, appx. 162 states, "crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god...It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper...The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon and upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle."

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol...the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah...the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammus...the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz."

In the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read, "In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner." Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolised by a hammer, while the Roman Christians had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman cross.

Greek dictionaries, lexicons and other study books also declare the primary meaning of stauros to be an upright pale, pole or stake. The secondary meaning of "cross" is admitted by them to be a "later" rendering. At least two of them do not even mention "cross," and only render the meaning as "pole or stake." In spite of this strong evidence and proof that the word stauos should have been translated "stake," and the verb stauroo to have been translated "impale," almost all the common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate's crux (cross), a "later" rendering of the Greek stauros.

While it is true that stauros means stake or pole, it does not rule out that a cross piece was not attached to it. Look at modern times for example. A post often has something else attached to it like a wire fence, a mail box, or even a sign. The Greek word "stauros" itself does not explain whether anything is, or is not attached to it. Even early Christian writers spoke of the cross as having four limbs pointing above, below, and to both sides. Irenaeus mentioned the cross as "two in length, and two in breadth." Justin Martyr spoke of the cross as having "one beam placed upright" and "the other beam fitted on to it."

Historical evidence points to Constantine as the one who had the major share in uniting Sun-worship and the Messianic Belief. Constantine's famous vision of "the cross superimposed on the sun," in the year 312, is usually cited. Writers, ignorant of the fact that the cross was not to be found in the New Testament Scriptures, put much emphasis on this vision as the onset of the so-called "conversion" of Constantine. But, unless Constantine had been misguided by the Gnostic Manichean half-Christians, who indeed used the cross in their hybrid religion, this version of the cross superimposed on the sun could only be the same old solar cross, the symbol of the Sun-deity, the centre of cosmic religion, the astrological religion of Babylon.

The fact remains: that which Constantine saw, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. We read in the book of Johannes Geffcken, The Last Days of Greco-Roman Paganism. p. 319, "that even after 314 A.D. the coins of Constantine show an even-armed cross as a symbol for the Sun-god."

Many scholars have doubted the "conversion" of Constantine because of the wicked deeds that he did afterwards, and because of the fact that he only requested to be baptized on his death-bed many years later, in the year 337. So, if the vision of the cross impressed him, and was used as a rallying symbol, it could not have been in honour of our Saviour, because Constantine is attested of by his persistent use of images of the Sun-deity on his coins that were issued by him up to the year 323. Secondly, the fact of his motivation to issue his Sunday-keeping edict in the year 321, which was not done in honour of our Saviour, but was done because of the "venerable day of the Sun," as the edict read, is proof of his continued allegiance to Sol Invictus.

Where did the cross come from, then? J.C. Cooper, An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols, p.45, aptly summarizes it, "Cross--A universal symbol from the most remote times; it is the cosmic symbol par excellence." Other authorities also call it a sun-symbol, a Babylonian sun-symbol, an astrological Babylonian-Assyrian and heathen sun-symbol, also in the form of an encircled cross referred to as a "solar wheel," and many other varieties of crosses. Also, "the cross represents the Tree of Life, the age-old fertility symbol, combining the vertical male and horizontal female principles, especially in Egypt, either as an ordinary cross, or better known in the form of the crus ansata, the Egyptian ankh (sometimes called: the Tau cross), which had been carried over into our modern-day symbol of the female, well known in biology.

As stated above, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the mystic Tau of the Babylonians and Egyptians, was brought into the Church chiefly because of Constantine, and has since been adored with all the homage due only to the Most Hight. The Protestants have for many years refrained from undue adoration of, or homage to, the cross, especially in England at the time of the Puritans in the 16th and 17th centuries. But lately this un-Scriptural symbol has been increasingly accepted in Protestantism. We have previously discussed "the weeping for Tammuz," and the similarity between the Easter resurrection and the return or rising of Tammuz. Tammuz was the young incarnate Sun, the Sun-divinity incarnate. This same Sun-deity, known amongst the Babylonians as Tammuz, was identified with the Greek Adonis and with the Phoenician Adoni, all of them Sun-deities, being slain in winter, then being "wept for," and their return being celebrated bu a festivity in spring, while some had it in summer--according to the myths of pagan idolarty.

The evidence for its pagan origin is so convincing that The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that "the sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization." It then continues and refers to the Tau cross of the pagan Egyptians, "In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross."

Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace, and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.E. The Buddhists, and numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers' heads. "The cross thus widely worshipped, or regarded as a 'sacred emblem,' was the unequivocal symbol of Bacchus, the Babylonian Messiah, for he was represented with a head-band convered with crosses."

After Constantine had the "vision of the cross," he ahd his army promoted another variety of the cross, the Chi-Rho or Labarum. This has subsequently been explained as representing the first letters of the name Christos, But again, this had a pagan origin. They were found as inscriptions on rock, dating from the year ca. 2500 B.C.E., being interpreted as "a combination of two Sun-symbols, known as the Ax- or Hammer-symbol of the Sun- or Sky-deity, and the + or X as the ancient symbol of the Sun, both of these signs having a sensual or fertility meaning as well. Another proof of its pagan origin is found on a coin of Ptolemeus III from the year 247-222 B.C.E.

A well-known encyclopedia describes the Labarum (Chi-Rho) as, "The labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean (Babylonian) sky-god and in Christianity it was adopted..." Emperor Constantine adopted this Labarum as the imperial ensign and thereby succeeded in "uniting both divisions of his troops, pagans and Christians, in a common worship...

According to Suicer the word (labarum) came into use in the reign of Hadrian, and was probably adopted from one of the nations conquered by the Romans." It must be remembered that Hadrian reigned in the years 76-138 C.E., that he was a pagan emperor, worshipped the Sun-deity Serapis when he visited Alexandria, and was vehemently anti-Judaic, being responsible for the final near-destruction of Jerusalem in the year 130 C.E.

Another dictionary relates the following about the Chi-Rho, "However, the symbol was in the use long before Christianity, and X (Chi) probably stood for Great Fire or Sun, and P (Rho) probably stood for Pater or Patah (Father). The word labarum (la-baar-um) yields everlasting Father Sun."

Do you profess Jesus as Elohim, Jehova?


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[Danoh]

Nevertheless, the following was not only written way before all the so called "history" and so called "history's" ever endless reading into and or guessing at one thing or another...

The following was written not only way before all that; but there were still plenty of witnesses to corroborate it, when it was written.

Pole, cross, thumb tack, hung out to dry, or what have you, nevertheless...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

 

[beameup]

Nevertheless, the following was not only written way before all the so called "history" and so called "history's" ever endless reading into and or guessing at one thing or another...

The following was written not only way before all that; but there were still plenty of witnesses to corroborate it, when it was written.

Pole, cross, thumb tack, hung out to dry, or what have you, nevertheless...

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

That's nice, but what does it have to do with the OP? :blabla:

 

[jamie]

While we strain at a gnat we should keep in mind that the life in the blood of Jesus ended.

 

[Ben Masada]

While we strain at a gnat we should keep in mind that the life in the blood of Jesus ended.

I agree with you Jamie. The life and blood of every one end when he or she dies.

 

[Ben Masada]

How about the bronze serpent raised up on a pole by Moses?
If the "snake" bit you, you had to look to the brazen serpent to be healed.

The bronze serpent raised by Moses in the desert was meant to serve as an analogy for the People to look at their past and be reminded of 430 years of captivity in Mizraim every time they were complaining that Moses had taken them to die in the desert.

 

[john w]

How about the bronze serpent raised up on a pole by Moses?
If the "snake" bit you, you had to look to the brazen serpent to be healed.

Nice present a moving target...."Yeh, but what about.....?"

That's slick...Real slick.....Like a serpent...

 

[john w]

Not really. Generally a mistranslation implies a genuine human error such as a copyist error. What I'm talking about are deliberate interpolations or deliberate corruptions of the text to further the crucifixion/cross dogma. Interpolation has been very popular by translators throughout Christendoms history.

And what "the text" would that be, sport? Does this "the" text have a name? You have this "the" text?

 

[CherubRam]

Do you profess Jesus as Elohim, Jehova?


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Yahshua is not Yahwah the Father. Yahshua is the Messiah.

 

[john w]

If Christ would have been hung on a actual cross, the scriptures would have made it known. As it is today, the word "cross" has been added, and is not in the original writings.

Observe, the deception:

"is not in the original writings."

You have these "original writings?"


You devilish fraud. And just how would you know you had these "original writings," which disappeared almost as soon, relatively, as the the proverbial ink dried on the stone, papyrus,....., even if they were allegedly dropped in your lap, by God, an angel, ....?


Deceiver.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Yahshua is not Yahwah the Father. Yahshua is the Messiah.

Just to be difficult, I am posting verses right out of the New world translation....

Please read them carefully, but read them knowing that they are directly out of a watch tower bible.

Romans 10:

9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord,+ and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.

11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.”+

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.+ There is the same Lord over all, who is rich* toward all those calling on him.

13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah* will be saved.”+

14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?

.......................... According to verse 9 to 11, who is being talked about as to who we call on to be saved?

More specifically, who is verse 13 referring to when it says "name of Jehovah"?

According to 9 a 13 what is the name of Jehovah that I call on to be saved.

Check it out. I promise you, it will be in your New World Translation. Exactly as you see it here.

 

[jamie]

More specifically, who is verse 13 referring to when it says "name of Jehovah"?

Who knows? English versions are translated from Hebrew and from Greek, the word "jehovah" is neither. It is made up.

 

[Danoh]

Just to be difficult, I am posting verses right out of the New world translation....

Please read them carefully, but read them knowing that they are directly out of a watch tower bible.

Romans 10:

9 For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord,+ and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration+ for salvation.

11 For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.”+

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.+ There is the same Lord over all, who is rich* toward all those calling on him.

13 For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah* will be saved.”+

14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?

.......................... According to verse 9 to 11, who is being talked about as to who we call on to be saved?

More specifically, who is verse 13 referring to when it says "name of Jehovah"?

According to 9 a 13 what is the name of Jehovah that I call on to be saved.

Check it out. I promise you, it will be in your New World Translation. Exactly as you see it here.

What a mess...

Yo, JohnW, here is another for your "take a seat" assembly hall of incompetents.

Sheesh, had you been selling tickets to that hall of fools - 50 for a dollar - you'd be a rich man by now.

New World Translation, my foot!

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Observe, the deception:

"is not in the original writings."

You have these "original writings?"


You devilish fraud. And just how would you know you had these "original writings," which disappeared almost as soon, relatively, as the the proverbial ink dried on the stone, papyrus,....., even if they were allegedly dropped in your lap, by God, an angel, ....?


Deceiver.

John, she's not a deceiver, she is a JW. How does admonishing her help her. I promise she gets enough brow beating from the watch tower. I am sure that she's in a hurry to see things your way now.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Origin of the Cross

What a mess...

Yo, JohnW, here is another for your "take a seat" assembly hall of incompetents.

Sheesh, had you been selling tickets to that hall of fools - 50 for a dollar - you'd be a rich man by now.

New World Translation, my foot!

Sup Danoh,

Did you read the words of my post before you started speaking harshly. It is the one place in the JW bible that cites Jesus as Jehovah. I was sharing with a sister in Christ.

But hey, I remember Jesus going around and making fun of people that were struggling as well. Could you shoot me those verses where Jesus is an a hole.

I keep forgetting them.

 

[john w]

John, she's not a deceiver, she is a JW. How does admonishing her help her. I promise she gets enough brow beating from the watch tower. I am sure that she's in a hurry to see things your way now.

Slower-pay attention to her "argument:"

"is not in the original writings."-her

"You have these "original writings?"-saint John W


That is deception, as these "original writings" bit the dust, thousands of years ago.