One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.

[docrob57]

I
I pray you and your family have a blessed Holiday! :up:

Same to you.

 

[docrob57]

Docrob, what you have stated so far in this "debate" is nothing more than assertion. If you want to debate me you are (at some point) going to have to backup your assertions.

I have already made several very solid biblical arguments against Total Depravity while you have made a total of zero.

[/B] :up:

No, I have given logical arguments why you and those who follow your doctrine are most likely damned. I will give you Scriptures when I have the time. I have said that often too. Your continued yarping is of no consquence.

You wouldn't know a solid Biblical argument if it came up and bit you, if you did, you wouldn't be a heretic.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

You wouldn't know a solid Biblical argument if it came up and bit you, if you did, you wouldn't be a heretic.

Uh... let me guess... is that supposed to be another one of your "funny jokes"?

Doc... you really aren't a very friendly person.

Knight's verse of the day....
Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

 

[docrob57]

Uh... let me guess... is that supposed to be another one of your "funny jokes"?

Doc... you really aren't a very friendly person.

Knight's verse of the day....
Titus 3:10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

I am simply using the time honored Enyartian tough love approach. I would have thought you would recognize it!

 

[docrob57]

Doc, that' a silly objection.

Satan knows that God exists, and even though Satan is in rebellion Satan knows that Jesus died to pay for our sin, do you agree or disagree with Satan on that point?

The point is that Satan obviously did perceive of the future as open.

Unlike God, Satan does not have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge. At the time it happened, no, I don't think that Satan knew that Jesus died to pay for our sin. At that point, I think he thought he had won.

So my point is far from silly.
The OV insists that God is much less than He is. Satan made the same error, he thought that somehow he could defeat God.
The OV is a deception. Satan is the deceiver, accordingly Satan is the author of the OV.
The OV is a doctrine which appeals to the flesh by elevating the status of man, essentially placing man in control of his own destiny. Satan uses fleshly desires to pull people away from God.

I would say that Satan is, in fact, the preeminent Open Theist.

 

[docrob57]

I have already made several very solid biblical arguments against Total Depravity while you have made a total of zero.

Docrob's response to Knight's statement.

A.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

This says that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are carnal, and that the carnal person not only does not but cannot subject himself to God's law. Those in the flesh cannot please God.

For the most part I will quote here from the NKJV, but I want to present the ESV translation of Romans 8:7 here because it makes the phrase the NKJV translates as "subject to" clearer.

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

In Hebrews 11:6 we learn that

without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

. The carnal (unregenerate) person cannot please God, and this passage indicates that without faith it is impossible to please God. It would seem reasonable to conclude that the unregenerate person has no faith.

B.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Again, Paul is dealing with the carnal, unregenerate nature. He indicates again the incapacity to do any good. Note that in both of these verses, disobedience to God is not put forth as a tendency, it is put forth as an impossibility.

C.

Psalm 14:1 They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. 3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Psalm 5:9 9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; Their inward part is destruction; Their throat is an open tomb; They flatter with their tongue.

Psalm 140:3 They sharpen their tongues like a serpent; The poison of asps is under their lips.

These, of course, are the passages cited by Paul in Romans 3. Immediately preceding these quotes, Paul says

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

, indicating that his statements are universal, not just confined to a particular group.

It seems clear, therefore, that Paul is speaking of man's total depravity, to coin a phrase.

D.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- [/B]

More on the nature of the unregenerate.

There is more, which I will present if you like. But the scriptures I have cited demonstrate man's nature and his inability to please God. It takes faith to please God, and it takes faith to even seek God's mercy through salvation. This point is driven home by Ephesians 2:8:

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

and Hebrews 12:2

Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith

.

Faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Jesus is the author of faith.

Again, if you would like more I will present it. I am working on a response to your Q7b. That will take a while, however.

So my question for you (I will start the numbering again, because I forgot which one I was on)

1. How does an inherently evil, enemy of God come to Him for forgiveness and salvation when he isn't even able to understand that he needs them? after all, even if he hears the Gospel he will not accept it, "for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing" (1 Cor 1:18).

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I would say that Satan is, in fact, the preeminent Open Theist.

Well then... you acknowledge that Satan (a creature with vastly more knowledge about God and creation than you have) is an open theist and you mockingly think this somehow this helps your argument??? :chuckle:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Again, if you would like more I will present it.

More?

Doc with all due respect you all you have done is show that man cannot save himself apart from God. No Open Theist would suggest otherwise. That's why it's so important that men humble themselves before the Lord! And that's also why its so important that we "spread the word"! If God didn't give us the ability to choose Him why would He have bothered to leave us His word and tell us to spread the word?

Paul said....

2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

And why should we do that?

2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Notice that Doc? We need to preach the word and convince the lost because they are drawn away from God by "their own desires". God wants all men to be saved (1Timothy 2:4) and God draws all men to Himself (John 12:32) but men reject calls calling by "their own desires".

Ultimately it boils down to the most simple concept. Mankind cannot save himself yet God wants all men to be saved so therefore God asks that we (His elect) spread the gospel so that other men might choose Him. Men reject God via their "their own desires" and they are therefore they are "without excuse" (Romans 1:20).

God lets us do the choosing and then He does all the reparations through Jesus faith on the cross!

Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve (Joshua 24:15).

Furthermore...
When God says that man (apart from God) cannot please God it's a figure of speech that means that man cannot pay the penalty for his sin apart from God. After all in the story of the good Samaritan it was the unbeliever that did good and Jesus wanted believers to do likewise. Therefore the lost can do good they just can't please God in that they cannot save themselves.

Doc, you do agree that the story of the good Samaritan is a clear example (from Jesus Himself) of a unbeliever doing good don't you? I assume you agree so I will not make this one of my questions to you although you can answer if it if you like.

1. How does an inherently evil, enemy of God come to Him for forgiveness and salvation when he isn't even able to understand that he needs them? after all, even if he hears the Gospel he will not accept it, "for the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing" (1 Cor 1:18).

Knight's Answer to Doc's question #1: Yes the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, that's simply a statement of fact. But that doesn't mean those that are perishing can't be convinced to humble themselves before the Lord, after all... that is the very purpose of evangelism!

Paul states it so perfectly when we read a bit further.....
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

A simple plea for old school evangelism! Preach the word to the lost so that they might believe and be saved!

Doc we are commanded to.....
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. - 2 Timothy 4:2

And why? Because...
...faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

And therefore...
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.” - Romans 10:13

Our difference regarding Total Depravity can be summarized as follows:

Docrob believes that men are totally depraved and therefore do not have the ability to even choose to accept God's gift..... only God can do the choosing.

Knight believes that men are totally depraved in that they cannot save themselves or pay for their own sin themselves, but they do have the ability to choose to accept or reject the good news which is why the entire Bible is about convincing the lost to humble themselves before the Lord.​

Joshua 24:15 “And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Knight's question #8: If God didn't give us the ability to choose Him why would He have bothered to leave us His word and command us to spread the word and convince others to believe?

 

[docrob57]

Well then... you acknowledge that Satan (a creature with vastly more knowledge about God and creation than you have) is an open theist and you mockingly think this somehow this helps your argument??? :chuckle:

Indeed, I mockingly do. Perhaps I do not revere satan as much as you do (in fact, I'm sure I don't), but I believe God has vastly more power than Satan.

My quick glance at your response to my larger post reveals that you have raised a couple of interesting questions which I will enjoy answering, however, now I am going to bed.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Indeed, I mockingly do. Perhaps I do not revere satan as much as you do (in fact, I'm sure I don't), but I believe God has vastly more power than Satan.

Doc, you know me.... you know how much I love the Lord, I have devoted mass amounts of time to this website to glorify Him, do you really think that I think I "revere" Satan or think that he has more power than God?

Why do you take these cheap shots at me?

Even though I disagree with you on some points of theology, I respect you as Christian brother, husband and father. I may at times mock your theology but I don't think it is profitable to mock your character and descend into personal insults.

My quick glance at your response to my larger post reveals that you have raised a couple of interesting questions which I will enjoy answering, however, now I am going to bed.

Sounds good. I have a second Thanksgiving to go to tomorrow so I don't know if I will be on much, I will get back on Sunday evening.

 

[docrob57]

Doc, you know me.... you know how much I love the Lord, I have devoted mass amounts of time to this website to glorify Him, do you really think that I think I "revere" Satan or think that he has more power than God?

Why do you take these cheap shots at me?

Okay, I will stop taking cheap shots. I believe that you do think that you love the Lord, and I know that you have devoted much effort in what you believe to be his service.

However, the same could also be said for most Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. I don't say that as a cheap shot, but it is an unpleasant thing to say. I believe that you have fallen into a trap - a false belief system that, if it doesn't take you completely beyond the boundaries of true Chrisitianity, at best leaves you tetering dangerously on the edge.

As I believe I said earlier, this was not what I thought coming into this one on one. I disagreed with the OV doctrine, but I did not think it was much worse than simple Arminianism. However, statements you (and other OVers on other threads) made at the outset (or near that time on other threads) were suffciently "shocking" that they left me fearing, for the first time since I have known you, that your dedication and service were to a god that really doesn't exist. A god based loosely on the Bible, but woefully tarnished by errant human reasoning.

You have been nice to me, and I have been trying to be nice to you by trying to jar you and other OVers into re-evaluating your position. However, I agree, this "technique" just comes off making me look angry and mean. So I will cease using it.

I probably won't be around much today either, but I will address your questions as soon as I can.

 

[docrob57]

Knight's question #8: If God didn't give us the ability to choose Him why would He have bothered to leave us His word and command us to spread the word and convince others to believe?

Answer to Knight's Question #8. God does give the ability to choose Him, He just doesn't give it to everybody. As I have stated, in discussing the doctrine of total depravity, we can't choose God unless He gives us the ability.

And now I bid TOL a fond farewell. Yes, really this time!! Knight suggested that I have not added much to people's understanding of total depravity. This may or may not be true, depending on what the reader's understanding was to begin with.

I have stated that I do not beleive that OVers are saved, or that I at least have serious doubts that they are. And I have given my reasoning for this. There are certainly many others within the community of legitimate Christians that agree with me on this, though there are others who don't. My purpose here, as I said previously, was not to persuade Knight but to set forth a warning, which I have done.

I had hoped to go further in discussing the TULIP, but it really isn't possible here. Thanks to Knight for taking the time to do this.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

I have stated that I do not beleive that OVers are saved, or that I at least have serious doubts that they are. And I have given my reasoning for this.

Really Doc??? Have you really? I asked you to make a biblical case that I am going to hell but you never did (at least not that I can see). Could you please point me to where you "gave your reasoning"?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Answer to Knight's Question #8. God does give the ability to choose Him, He just doesn't give it to everybody. As I have stated, in discussing the doctrine of total depravity, we can't choose God unless He gives us the ability.

Docrob's answer is in direct opposition to what we read in the Bible. I want to assure anyone reading this thread that Docrob is dead wrong and and I want to assure those that are lost that there is hope for ALL MEN. God's offer to mankind is not an exclusionary offer. The offer is available for all men, everyone, without exception.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

1 Timothy 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son,but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”​

Ultimately all men get a fair shake from God who is just, loving and merciful. And because of this all men will be without excuse on judgment day. Sadly, Calvinism turns God's good news into bad news for those that aren't of the pre-selected "elect". Thankfully Calvinism can easily be demonstrated to be in error and we can all rest assure that there is hope for all men.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Docrob's final word?

Docrob's final word?

On another thread Docrob added....

I checked to see if you had made a response to the final post on the one on one, and I see that you did. I will not respond since there is no point, and since I do not want to be involved here anymore. I hope and pray that no one who is not already deceived by the OV heresy is convinced by what you have to say.

I just have to point out that I am extremely disappointed in you and the other OVers. You say that you accept non-OVers as brothers in Christ, so why do you work so hard to "convert" them? You must be aware that there are many non-OVers who do not consider the doctrine you follow to be Christian. As I have said, and as numerous theologians (Calvinist and Arminian) that I have read in recent months have said, the god that you worship is not the God of the Bible. Regardless of whether or not you beleive that, I would think that you would have enough judgment to recognize that there is sufficient doubt concerning your views that you might not be trying so vigorously to spread them.

To all this you will say "what difference does it make if it is all predestined." And your point is correct, to a point. The main difference it makes is for you. This is especially true if there are degrees of punishment in hell. Each time you publicly mock God with your OV swill, you drive more nails in your coffin and sink yourself deeper into the pits. No one, not even a Calvinist, would say that you have no choice in this (as has been explained to you several times, and as you continually either deliberately or out of ignorance fail to acknowledge). And you will reap what you sow.

May God have mercy on you.
Robert Sims

Here is my response...

I checked to see if you had made a response to the final post on the one on one, and I see that you did. I will not respond since there is no point, and since I do not want to be involved here anymore. I hope and pray that no one who is not already deceived by the OV heresy is convinced by what you have to say.

Docrob, with all due respect... it was you who came back to TOL boldly proclaiming how you wanted to convert all of us OV'ers and it was you who asked me to debate you in the One on One thread, you should always be ready to give a defense for your beliefs. On the bright side... you didn't do poorly in our debate(s) because you are a bad debater, instead you did poorly in the debate because your theology doesn't make sense and it isn't biblical. The church you are attending is feeding you a bunch of garbage. What's worse is they have puffed you up and you are now boastful in your theology (which is flawed) when instead you should be boastful in only the cross of Jesus.

You continue...

I just have to point out that I am extremely disappointed in you and the other OVers. You say that you accept non-OVers as brothers in Christ, so why do you work so hard to "convert" them?

It is not my job to convert anyone that the future is open as I think that is self evident. I do however work hard to defend God's word which clearly supports the idea that the future is not meticulously settled in advance.

You continue...

You must be aware that there are many non-OVers who do not consider the doctrine you follow to be Christian. As I have said, and as numerous theologians (Calvinist and Arminian) that I have read in recent months have said, the god that you worship is not the God of the Bible. Regardless of whether or not you beleive that, I would think that you would have enough judgment to recognize that there is sufficient doubt concerning your views that you might not be trying so vigorously to spread them.

I really could care less what some theologian thinks. To me, there is nothing more important than God's word.

The Bible is my guide not some so called "scholar".

You continue...

To all this you will say "what difference does it make if it is all predestined." And your point is correct, to a point. The main difference it makes is for you. This is especially true if there are degrees of punishment in hell. Each time you publicly mock God with your OV swill, you drive more nails in your coffin and sink yourself deeper into the pits.

I have asked you several times to give a biblical defense for such a bizarre assertion and you have failed to give one shred of biblical evidence that a person who believes the future is not settled is going to hell. Apparently you have pulled this notion from the book of Docrob.

You continue...

No one, not even a Calvinist, would say that you have no choice in this (as has been explained to you several times, and as you continually either deliberately or out of ignorance fail to acknowledge). And you will reap what you sow.

According to you I don't "sow" anything!!! God sows, not men! Don't you remember?

Again Docrob you can't even accept your own theology! You preach a settled future but you cry out in every paragraph that you type that men have the ability to make choices. Until you can accept the consequences of your own theology how do you expect to convince anyone else?

You continue...

May God have mercy on you.

He already has! :thumb:

I pray that God blesses you and your family and comforts you during tough times we (at TOL) will always be here for you if you want to fellowship or discuss religion, politics or anything else.