Uh... I never said that. Doc, I am pretty good at putting words in my own mouth, I don't need your help.docrob57 said:
One on One: Tip toe through the TULIPs with docrob57 and Knight.
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Knight said:
They can and do co-exist. Calvinists do not deny the existence of free will, however, they do define it differently than you do. From my perspective, men are free to do whatever evil they choose. They are by nature (not just predisposition or propensity) evil and they can do no other.
God is sovereign, and knows the free will choices that men will make, and everything else for that matter. That being the case, He is able to order things so that they occur in accordance with His will, by using the free will choices of men.
I have to work some but I will return later.
Knight said:What does the following mean to you.....
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. - Revelation 22:17
You can answer if you want, although to be honest the question is somewhat rhetorical.
The answer is that God implants the thrist.
Knight said:You have never even made a case for the "T"! You claimed you did here , but all you really did was state what you think the "T" means which is really no news at all.
Doc, if you want to move to the "U" feel free.
I am very flexible at this point.
Okay, I think I actually understand what you are saying here!! Well there is progress. When I come back later, I will build a scriptural argument for Total Inability (or Depravity, whichever you like)
I guess the reason I didn't do that before, is that I am sure you are familiar with it, however, I will do it for all the viewers at home.
Finally, don't take offense that I said you were probably going to hell, some of my best friends are headed there without doubt!!
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?docrob57 said:
Doc, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you are not a Calvinist. You are more of an Arminian. Were you aware of this? :freak:
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I guess you have a different definition of "freely".docrob57 said:
Doc, let the record state I would never make that same claim of you.docrob57 said:Finally, don't take offense that I said you were probably going to hell, some of my best friends are headed there without doubt!!
You are offensive, divisive and unbrotherly. I think you should apologize and repent.
Again.... I believe in my heart and have confessed with my mouth that the Lord Jesus died for my sin and that He rose on the third day.docrob57 said:
Knight's question #7 What gives you the right to assert that I am not saved? What is you rational (or defense) for such an assertion?
Answering questions with irrelevant follow-up questions again?docrob57 said:
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?
Knight said:Answering questions with irrelevant follow-up questions again?
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?
Yes, I answered this by reference to the Westminster confession which I accept. I think I have answered that several times already, however, I admit that it may have been on different threads.
Knight said:
I did not assert that you are not saved. I said that I was concerned that you may not be, though I probably didn't say that very politely. However, as this is the home of the truthsmack, I felt it was appropriate.
The problem is that you attribute your belief and confession to yourself. Much worse, however, you also indicate that it is at least theoretically possible for someone to save himself due to what you see as the elimination of an inherited sin nature at the crucifixion. This belief renders the atonement a mere "nicety," something that we can use if we need it but not really necessary. That is the really bad part.
Hmmmm lets see......docrob57 said:
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?
Doc's answer: God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
So... is that a YES or a NO? Looks like both to me.
YES: God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass
NO: neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away
How about we try again and you give me a YES or a NO. Why is that so hard?
Knight's question #6 Has God predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history? YES or NO?
I simply believe the words of the Bible instead of the words of Docrob.docrob57 said:
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
The Bible says that IF man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth he will be saved by God.
You assert man cannot do that.
I proudly reject your assertion.
Ohhhhh..... kay......... Does that come from the gospel of Docrob? :kookoo:docrob57 said:
Knight said:
No that comes from the Gospel, which ultimately you reject because you insist that you are the key actor in your salvation. It amzes me how quickly you result to infantilism in your arguments.
If you don't want to discuss these things don't! It's your website! If you do, then just stick to your arguments and drop all the sophomoric stuff.
That's better, that wasn't so hard was it?docrob57 said:
So you acknowledge that God has predestined EVERY event, EVERY thought, EVERY - everything - in advance for all of history. That being the case where does man's freewill come into play?
Take an event - any event. Let's say... me going to the store today to pick up a turkey for Thanksgiving. You assert that event was ordained a millennia ago by God. It wasn't my choice to go to the store it was God's choice. God picked out my turkey and my wine that I bought at the liquor store. Nothing I did today was out of the scope of God meticulous planning a millennia ago (according to you). Where does freewill come into play? What part of my day and my subsequent decisions throughout the day were free?
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