ECT Once Saved, Always Saved
- Thread starter Nick M
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Indeed. The Great Commission will be completed after the LORD returns.
Churchianity does not like that.
I rely on the righteousness and obedience of one as scripture says.
That is not heresy.
You are the one in heresy for not believing it, and wanting to add another to the one.
Point blank:
Romans 5 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of [get ready for it ....] one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of [get ready for it ....] one shall many be made righteous.
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of [get ready for it ....] one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of [get ready for it ....] one shall many be made righteous.
ONE, not two.
Stop trying to add your imperfection to the perfection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
They don't like it at all.
But then again, those in replacement theology are constantly trying to replace what GOD has not.
God's Truth
New member
God reconciled the whole universe to Him through Jesus Christ.
That means no more about blood relations to Abraham; only blood relations to Jesus Christ.
It no longer matters to whom one is blood related to Abraham.
It only matters about the blood of Jesus.
Jesus' blood washes away the sins of those who enter by living faith
Repent and believe.
No more?
When was it ever?
God's Truth
New member
Really? You don't know that it was about those blood related to Abraham until Jesus came?
Genesis 18:19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just, so that the LORD will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him."
Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."
Deuteronomy 7:8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 4:37
Because he loved your ancestors and chose their descendants after them, he brought you out of Egypt by his Presence and his great strength,
Deuteronomy 9:5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
glorydaz
Well-known member
The shame is on you for claiming you supply any of those. The GRACE OF God, the faith of Jesus Christ, and His obedience unto death. Your trying to be a glory stealer is where the shame lies.
Salvation is a GIFT of God that YOU cannot earn. :nono:
Fisherofmen
Member
You're not reading very closely. Jesus is not only talking to those disciples with him at that time, but also their lawful successors. For Jesus says He will be with them until the consummation of the world. The disciples with Him at that time obviously were not to remain on earth until the consummation of the world. Therefore you err. Again.
And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Mat. 28:18-20).
Fisherofmen
Member
Grace cannot be supplied be me. Cooperation must be supplied by me. God does not force a person's free will. Works do not automatically flow from grace and faith and we are to be judged by our works. Faith is nothing without works. Works are salvific. Obedience to the Commandments necessary for salvation. Salvation must be worked out in fear and trembling. See evidence below. Give up your heresies, not only for your own sake, but for those who you are corrupting.
(Mat. 5:48, Mat. 19:16-17, 1 Cor 13:2, Phil. 2:12, Heb 5:9, Jas. 2:20, Jas 2:24, Rev 20:13)
Agreed.
So Romans is heresy?
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:21-26&version=NKJV
No works mentioned.
In fact, if you keep reading:
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:27-28 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:27-28&version=NKJV
(NO, GT, this is not talking about ceremonial works only.)
Fisher, you should go read Romans 3-7. You may find that what you teach is not for the Christian.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Nope.
He had also said this to them - much earlier...
Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
And that began to play out - in Acts 4-8.
Which was why Stephen saw the Lord no longer sitting at the Father's right hand in Acts 7.
Here, He was depicted as sitting...until.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Here, He is depicted as standing...
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Why that prayer?
Because as that cool old Native American in the great Clint Eastwood Western classic "The Outlaw Josey Wales" says, when he sees Josey off in the distance coming to rescue them from them Comancheros - "Get ready, granny; hell's comin tuh breakfast..."
In other words, the world was then headed for hell on Earth, there, In Acts 7, thus, Stephen's prayer for his nation...
Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
But what happened, instead?
What happened is what God planned to temporarily interrupt that with...
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
In other words, the unbelieving Israelites response is "what's the hold up now; why doesn't He pour His wrath already, and get it over with?"
Reply?
Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Remember, Israelite, what His reply was one of those others times you took issue with His delay of His wrath; remember what He said back then?
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Well, such is the case, this time around also...
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Nevertheless, His hell is yet comin to breakfast, Israel...prior to His also Prophesied goodness unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and their Multiplied "sons of Jacob" at last......
Romans 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Acts 17:11,12
ROFL!
Two people, ignoramus.
Pay attention.
We'll see.
Guess not.
It is still going right over your head.
NONE of YOUR works are included at all.
Only the righteousness and obedience of ONE saves.
Even with those clear words, you still want to change it to two (you plus Christ).
Folks have always been able to be saved whether they were blood related to Abraham or not.
Exactly.
If it is earned, then it is no longer grace, but debt..
Romans 4:4 KJV
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 11:6 KJV
(6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Galatians 2:21 KJV
(21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 10:3 KJV
(3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
One, not two.
HIS righteousness, not your righteousness.
HIS obedience, not your obedience.
(3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
One, not two.
HIS righteousness, not your righteousness.
HIS obedience, not your obedience.
God's Truth
New member
Right. But most people were not cut off from their own people if they did not do the purification/ceremonial works, as the JEWS were.
The Jews knew that God did miraculous things for them. They also knew that a blood relative would come the Savior.
Fisherofmen
Member
Apart from the law meaning the Old Covenant Law. Faith in Jesus Christ meaning a living faith which includes good works (1 Cor.13:2, Jas. 2:20). Freely by His grace, meaning there was nothing I could do to merit the initial grace. Romans therefore is certainly not heresy, it is being misinterpreted by faith aloners, who would have Scripture be contradictory instead of giving up their error.
Your are misinterpreting St. Paul. He specifically says in the above "deeds of the law". Just one chapter earlier St. Paul warns the Romans that they will be judged according to their works. Obviously he cannot come back in the next chapter and say works are irrelevant. THEY ARE EITHER NOT THE SAME WORKS (because they are Old Covenant works), AND/OR THEY ARE NOT DONE IN THE SAME SPIRIT (meaning they are done while denying God's grace and Jesus Christ). This is the boasting spoken of, because they thought they could do good WITHOUT God's grace and faith in Jesus. I am saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that we can do no salvific work apart from God's grace and faith in Jesus (obedience).
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and patience, and longsuffering? Knowest thou not, that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance? [5] But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.[6] Who will render to every man according to his works. (Rom 2:4-6)
Notice that in the very book you quote from, we read that God renders to every man according to his works. Not only in Romans but throughout Scripture...
(Psalms 62:13, Prov. 24:12, Mat. 16:27, Rom. 2:5-6, Rev. 20:13, Rev. 22:12)
What you are doing is called proof texting. You put a few verses in a vacuum and misinterpret it despite volumes of evidence to the contrary. So this is supposed to nullify all the verses which say that God will judge us according to our works and the faith without works is dead and that it is possible to have a faith that moves mountains and yet not have works? Do you wish to throw these verses "in the oven" in imitation of the apostate Luther? I told you, works of the Old Covenant Law and/or works of our own accord (denying God's grace and faith in Christ) are what is being referred to. NOT works done acknowledging God's grace, and in obedience to Christ. It's really not that hard to understand. Scripture cannot contradict itself. If you think I'm wrong than EXPLAIN the following verses. If not, you admit that they are erroneous by default, hence you cannot be Christian.
(Psalms 62:13, Prov. 24:12, Mat. 10:22 (just added, thanks to Danoh), Mat. 16:27, Mat 19:16-17, Mat. 25:31-46, Rom 2:5-6, 1 Cor. 13:2, Phil 2:12, Heb. 5:9, Jas. 2:20, Jas. 2:24, Rev. 20:13, Rev. 22:12)
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Fisherofmen
Member
Answered in post #85. Wake up Tambora (you're still asleep).
Already answered Tambora. You are erroneously proof texting a few verses at the expense of many others and are making the Scriptures to contradict themselves. You still haven't come up with any logical explanation for the following verses...
(Mat. 10:22 (just added, thanks to Danoh), Mat. 16:27, Mat 19:16-17, Mat. 25:31-46, Rom. 2:5-6, 1 Cor. 13:2, Phil 2:12, Heb. 5:9, Jas. 2:20. Jas. 2:24, Rev. 20:13, Rev. 22:12)
This is because you have none.
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