ECT Once Saved, Always Saved

[SabathMoon]

Glad you asked!

And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: [9] And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. (Heb 5:8-9)

Sorry, the verse is about medical salvation and not the afterlife. The Levites were physicians.

[It was a good try.]

 

[Tambora]

If it is a teaching on faith and morals in Scripture and taught by the Church it doesn't matter. If it applies to one part of the Body of Christ, it applies to all.

Was Christ going against faith and morals when He told His disciples not to tell anyone He was the Christ?

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus also said to tell no one He was the Christ.

So, again, not everything Jesus commanded was for everyone at all times.

At least we have broken you from your repeated lie of "We must obey EVERYTHING Jesus commanded".

I have not lied. We have to obey everything that Jesus commands.

One of these days you might realize that it is by the obedience and righteousness of Christ only.

His words are righteous.

How does anyone ever get that not obeying Jesus is the way?

And you can then testify to folks about what HE did, instead of what you do.

He saved me when I obeyed his words.
You say his words are not for us to obey.
How do you ever get that is better?

You, like Truster, like to go on and on about what YOU do.
None of what you and Truster have done will save anyone.

Truster is a Calvinist and says God did it and that he did nothing.

Christ was sinless.
You were not.

That is why I had to do what he says.

Christ's obedience and righteousness was 100% at all times.
Yours were not.

He is the Way.

No one can get there unless one does what the Way says.

 

[Fisherofmen]

Jesus also said to tell no one He was the Christ.

So, again, not everything Jesus commanded was for everyone at all times.

So those who came after the letter to the Hebrews can disobey Christ and attain eternal salvation, while those who came before the letter to the Hebrews had to obey Christ to attain eternal life?

And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: [9] And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. (Heb 5:8-9)

At least we have broken you from your repeated lie of "We must obey EVERYTHING Jesus commanded".

So which things can you disobey? Please tell us.

One of these days you might realize that it is by the obedience and righteousness of Christ only.
And you can then testify to folks about what HE did, instead of what you do.

I don't testify to what I do. I work out my salvation in fear in trembling. (Phil. 2:12)

Christ was sinless.
You were not.

Christ's obedience and righteousness was 100% at all times.
Yours were not.

No arguments here. Christ knew this, which is why He gave his Church the Sacrament of Penance. That is for another thread, however.

 

[Fisherofmen]

Was Christ going against faith and morals when He told His disciples not to tell anyone He was the Christ?

You are confusing a DISCIPLINE with a teaching on FAITH AND MORALS.

 

[Fisherofmen]

Sorry, the verse is about medical salvation and not the afterlife. The Levites were physicians.

[It was a good try.]

:darwinsm:

 

[Tambora]

You are confusing a DISCIPLINE with a teaching on FAITH AND MORALS.

You can word it any way you like, but it is not going to change the error.
It was a command of Jesus to His disciples.
When Christ was "disciplining", did He do so against the Holy Spirit?
Was it against faith and morals?

Do you guys even think before you post?

 

[Tambora]

So those who came after the letter to the Hebrews can disobey Christ and attain eternal salvation, while those who came before the letter to the Hebrews had to obey Christ to attain eternal life?

I let you answer .....
Do you obey the command of Christ to his disciples to not tell anyone He is the Christ?
That's something he told HIS disciples/followers to do.

But something changed, didn't it, where the command HE once gave to HIS followers was no longer a command to HIS followers.

And whereas indeed he was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things which he suffered: [9] And being consummated, he became, to all that obey him, the cause of eternal salvation. (Heb 5:8-9)

There are several commands of Jesus in scripture that do not apply to everyone for all times.

The 12 taught to obey the law of Moses.
Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, not one jot or tittle.

Now what cha gonna do?

So which things can you disobey? Please tell us.

Which sin did Jesus not take care of?
Was HIS obedience and righteousness not good enough for YOU, that you think your piddly works will add enough to it to save?

I don't testify to what I do. I work out my salvation in fear in trembling. (Phil. 2:12)

Fear of what?
You not measuring up?
You ought to be afraid if that is what you are relying on.
Because YOU are not going to measure up.
But Christ did.
Your reliance should be only in HIM.

No arguments here. Christ knew this, which is why He gave his Church the Sacrament of Penance. That is for another thread, however.

The BOC needs no sacrament of penance.
We rely solely on the obedience and righteousness of Christ.

Your church has hoodwinked you into believing YOUR obedience and righteousness are included.
They are not.


Romans 5:18-19 KJV


(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



Again, YOU are not the one.

 

[Tambora]

I have not lied. We have to obey everything that Jesus commands.

You continue in error even when shown scripture of commands Jesus gave His followers that you admit you do not obey.

How does anyone ever get that not obeying Jesus is the way?

By reading and trusting scripture given to Paul by the risen Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ to take to entire world.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

He saved me when I obeyed his words.

Your obedience did not save you.
The obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ saved you.
His obedience is the only obedience that can save, because His is the only perfect uninterrupted obedience.

You say his words are not for us to obey.

So do you, unless you obey His words of command to His disciples to not tell anyone He is the Christ.

How do you ever get that is better?

It would be better if you do tell everyone He is the Christ.

Truster is a Calvinist and says God did it and that he did nothing.

Truster is always going on about he has done, just like you.

That is why I had to do what he says.

If only you did, but you don't.
You don't even believe it when it is spelled out for you.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


That one still ain't you.

He is the Way.

No one can get there unless one does what the Way says.

You don't do all the Way said to do.
You are still adding your own works to the mix.

ONE, GT.

 

[God's Truth]

You continue in error even when shown scripture of commands Jesus gave His followers that you admit you do not obey.

So according to you we don't have to obey anything that Jesus says because he contradicts himself?

Matthew 8:4
Then Jesus instructed him, "See that you don't tell anyone. But go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift prescribed by Moses, as a testimony to them."

Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

By reading and trusting scripture given to Paul by the risen Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ to take to entire world.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

God did not nail obeying Him to the cross.

Paul did not preach another gospel of believe and do not obey in order to be saved.

Your obedience did not save you.

Jesus saved me all on his own, and he choose to save me because I obeyed. See Acts John 14:23, and Acts 5:32, and many others.

The obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ saved you.

That doesn't mean no one has to obey Jesus. It means we have to obey Jesus as we have always had to obey God.

His obedience is the only obedience that can save, because His is the only perfect uninterrupted obedience.

So then why did Jesus tell us to obey?

So do you, unless you obey His words of command to His disciples to not tell anyone He is the Christ.

He also said later to tell. So you want me not to tell?

It would be better if you do tell everyone He is the Christ.

That is what he says to do. So are you admitting we are to obey him?

Truster is always going on about he has done, just like you.

Truster says that God is doing it and he is doing nothing. He is glorifying himself being a disobedient servant.

If only you did, but you don't.
You don't even believe it when it is spelled out for you.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

It means that I don't have to get circumcised and sacrifice animals.

That one still ain't you.

What are you doing if you are not obeying?

You don't do all the Way said to do.
You are still adding your own works to the mix.

ONE, GT.

No, I am not adding things. You know what happened to Aaron's sons when they added things God did not command. I do what Jesus teaches. I do not add things.

 

[glorydaz]

Thank you so much for the care and kindness of your words.

I want to ask you though why you think I don't have peace and that I doubt?

Because you put so much stock in your obedience.

When we do that, the enemy comes a calling. He sees our weak spot. He sees we are trusting in ourselves.....even a wee bit and he pounces. He will be whispering in our ear how we should have done better....quicker....perhaps with a smile on our face in spite of our suffering and trials.

Sometimes even making us doubt the Lord can love us when we fall short in any way. He's a LIAR and accuses us...... unless we're FULLY PERSUADED that God is able to keep us unto the day of redemption. Once you're convinced of that, you don't even have to think about sin or loss. You can truly set your affections on things above. Because the more you think about what you shouldn't do, the more it becomes an apple dangling from a tree.

Think on these things....that will be my prayer for you this week.

Philippians 4:8 [
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

 

[God's Truth]

Because you put so much stock in your obedience.

When we do that, the enemy comes a calling. He sees our weak spot. He sees we are trusting in ourselves.....even a wee bit and he pounces. He will be whispering in our ear how we should have done better....quicker....perhaps with a smile on our face in spite of our suffering and trials.

Sometimes even making us doubt the Lord can love us when we fall short in any way. He's a LIAR and accuses us...... unless we're FULLY PERSUADED that God is able to keep us unto the day of redemption. Once you're convinced of that, you don't even have to think about sin or loss. You can truly set your affections on things above. Because the more you think about what you shouldn't do, the more it becomes an apple dangling from a tree.

Think on these things....that will be my prayer for you this week.

Philippians 4:8 [
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

I do those things. That is some of the commands that I obey.

 

[Fisherofmen]

You can word it any way you like, but it is not going to change the error.
It was a command of Jesus to His disciples.

Tambora, it looks like you just want to believe you won an argument instead of just accepting the truth. A DISCIPLINE certainly must be obeyed (but for a time). The Apostles did not disobey Jesus as you would like us to believe, by preaching Him among the nations. On the contrary, they were obedient in following the great commission given by Jesus after he rose again...

And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Mat. 28:18-20)

When Christ was "disciplining", did He do so against the Holy Spirit?

Of course not? This would be blasphemy.

Was it against faith and morals?

If Jesus would have said it was alright to worship idols or to murder and rob someone, then these would have been commands against faith and morals. These things are always evil at all times. Obviously, Jesus would never do this. But by telling the Apostles to delay their preaching of Him was a discipline (for a time only) for reasons known to Christ. Christ (Himself) spoke in parables to many, but explained the mysteries clearly to his Disciples (Mat 13:11-13). Did He do this against the Holy Spirit? Obviously not. Jesus could never do anything against the Holy Spirit.

Do you guys even think before you post?

Actually, Tambora, you are OVERTHINKING, and not seeing the clear evidence placed right before you, that obedience to Christ and good works are necessary and salvific. (Mat. 19:16-17, 1 Cor 13:2, Heb 5:9, Jas. 2:20, Jas 2:24, Rev 20:13)

 

[Fisherofmen]

Because you put so much stock in your obedience.

When we do that, the enemy comes a calling. He sees our weak spot. He sees we are trusting in ourselves.....even a wee bit and he pounces. He will be whispering in our ear how we should have done better....quicker....perhaps with a smile on our face in spite of our suffering and trials.

Actually it is Jesus who tells us not only to be quicker and better, BUT PERFECT. Therefore you condemn Jesus all the more by your ignorance.

Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.( Matt 5:48)

[21] Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. (Matt 19:21)

Sometimes even making us doubt the Lord can love us when we fall short in any way. He's a LIAR and accuses us...... unless we're FULLY PERSUADED that God is able to keep us unto the day of redemption. Once you're convinced of that, you don't even have to think about sin or loss. You can truly set your affections on things above. Because the more you think about what you shouldn't do, the more it becomes an apple dangling from a tree.

"If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love." (John 15:10)

Think on these things....that will be my prayer for you this week.

Philippians 4:8 [
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.​

Convenient, how you left out the very next verse...

The things which you have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, these do ye, and the God of peace shall be with you.(Phil 4:9)

Think about obeying God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Tambora, it looks like you just want to believe you won an argument instead of just accepting the truth. A DISCIPLINE certainly must be obeyed (but for a time). The Apostles did not disobey Jesus as you would like us to believe, by preaching Him among the nations. On the contrary, they were obedient in following the great commission given by Jesus after he rose again...

And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Mat. 28:18-20)

What do we see the Apostles doing after Jesus gave them that commandment? Do we see them going out into the world?

No. In fact, Galatians 2:7-9 shows that they agreed to go to the Hebrews, and that PAUL would be the one to go to the world. Except that Paul wasn't around when Jesus gave them that commandment. So why did they disobey Jesus and not go out into the world?

 

[Tambora]

Tambora, it looks like you just want to believe you won an argument instead of just accepting the truth.

If you had been paying attention, you would see who is telling the truth.

Out of one side of GT's mouth she is still going around telling folks that they must obey EVERYTHING Jesus commands.
And then out the other side of her mouth, she admits they don't have to obey EVERYTHING Jesus commands (as in tell no one He is the Christ).
She contradicts her own words, and you turn a blind eye to it.

The Apostles did not disobey Jesus as you would like us to believe, by preaching Him among the nations. On the contrary, they were obedient in following the great commission given by Jesus after he rose again...

And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. (Mat. 28:18-20)

You have not read all of scripture, have you?
Otherwise you would know that later, after the spat with Paul, the 12 agreed to only go the circumcision.
While Paul went only to the uncircumcision.
Galatians 2

If Jesus would have said it was alright to worship idols or to murder and rob someone,

Jesus is GOD.
GOD told Abraham to kill his son.

Actually, Tambora, you are OVERTHINKING, and not seeing the clear evidence placed right before you, that obedience to Christ and good works are necessary and salvific. (Mat. 19:16-17, 1 Cor 13:2, Heb 5:9, Jas. 2:20, Jas 2:24, Rev 20:13)

Here is what our apostle, Paul, said from his message from the risen Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 5 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



NOT by the righteousness and obedience of two (your works plus Christ's works), but by the righteousness and obedience of one only.

 

[musterion]

GT also is being evasive on the Gospel poll thread.

 

[Fisherofmen]

I let you answer .....
Do you obey the command of Christ to his disciples to not tell anyone He is the Christ?
That's something he told HIS disciples/followers to do.

You are so ignorant, I do not even know where to begin. THAT WAS A DISCIPLINE ONLY (FOR A TIME). After Christ rose again He commissioned the Apostle to baptize and preach (Mat 28:18-20)

There are several commands of Jesus in scripture that do not apply to everyone for all times.

Teachings on faith and morals which Jesus taught apply to everyone until the consummation. Learn the difference between a discipline and teachings of faith and morals before you post nonsense.

The 12 taught to obey the law of Moses.

The 12 - if you are refering to the Apostles - taught to REJECT the Mosaic Law.

Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, not one jot or tittle.

No, He came to FULFILL IT.

Now what cha gonna do?

Tell you that your arguments are ridiculous.

Which sin did Jesus not take care of?
Was HIS obedience and righteousness not good enough for YOU, that you think your piddly works will add enough to it to save?

Lofty words, full of ignorance and heresy. God commands us to add our works, and we will be judged by them.

(Mat. 5:48, Mat. 19:16-17, 1 Cor 13:2, Heb 5:9, Jas. 2:20, Jas 2:24, Rev 20:13)

Fear of what?
You not measuring up?
You ought to be afraid if that is what you are relying on.
Because YOU are not going to measure up.
But Christ did.
Your reliance should be only in HIM.

Your duty is to OBEY JESUS, and to do penance when you fail to obey Him. And to fear Him, which is the beginning of wisdom. (Prov 9:10). This certainly explains why you have no wisdom.

The BOC needs no sacrament of penance.
We rely solely on the obedience and righteousness of Christ.

You rely on heresy from the devil designed to ease your conscience, that all manner of sin, heresy and division may flourish in your sect.

Your church has hoodwinked you into believing YOUR obedience and righteousness are included.
They are not.

The only one being hoodwinked here, IS YOU.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Again, YOU are not the one.

Again, you will not be among the many made righteous if you do not obey God...

(Mat. 5:48, Mat. 19:16-17, 1 Cor 13:2, Heb 5:9, Jas. 2:20, Jas 2:24, Rev 20:13)

 

[Tambora]

What do we see the Apostles doing after Jesus gave them that commandment? Do we see them going out into the world?

No. In fact, Galatians 2:7-9 shows that they agreed to go to the Hebrews, and that PAUL would be the one to go to the world. Except that Paul wasn't around when Jesus gave them that commandment. So why did they disobey Jesus and not go out into the world?

Yeppers.

Not to mention that the 12 were sent to baptize (Mat 28:19) and Paul was not (1 Cor 1:17).

They seem to readily recognize the differences occurring with Jesus' instructions of their mission (don't tell, do tell), but then fail to recognize the differences with Jesus' instructions afterwards when Paul comes on the scene.
It's like once they finish reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they just turn their brains off and try to make it remain the same forever.

 

[Tambora]

You are so ignorant, I do not even know where to begin. THAT WAS A DISCIPLINE ONLY (FOR A TIME). After Christ rose again He commissioned the Apostle to baptize and preach (Mat 28:18-20)

And later, they were to go to the circumcision only.
Gal 2

Jesus' instructions did not cease from changing at the end of Matthew.