genuineoriginal
New member
No, I am asking you to prove the federal government stopped being under God and became a secular government and provide the date that happened.
OK Supreme Court: 10 Commandments must come down
- Thread starter Jose Fly
- Start date
Jose Fly
New member
Not by itself, but if the government erects monuments to one faith and excludes all others, that is a blatant endorsement of that faith, which the courts have rules is unconstitutional.
Jose Fly
New member
You've not shown that it ever was under God in the first place.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
"endorsing a faith" is not establishing a religion
Jose Fly
New member
The courts have ruled that the government endorsing one faith to the exclusion of others is unconstitutional. If you don't like it, make your arguments in the legal system.
genuineoriginal
New member
You are never going to be able to show that it wasn't created as a nation under God.
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Why America Is One Nation Under God
. . .
America is and has always been One Nation Under God. Though the founders used generic terms like Creator to describe that God, the God they meant was their God, of the Christian faith.
. . .
Patrick Henry put it this way, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
John Adams said it this way, “We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775] and he later explained, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
The point is this - it is historically indisputable that America was born One Nation under God. It does not require faith, but instead common logic to understand why. Men without a moral compass are incapable of long-term self-governance. The founders knew it because they had seen it. Few modern Americans have experienced what life would be like in a godless society, void of morality, so they question it. Many Americans place their trust in man over God, so they pursue it.
. . .
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Why America Is One Nation Under God
. . .
America is and has always been One Nation Under God. Though the founders used generic terms like Creator to describe that God, the God they meant was their God, of the Christian faith.
. . .
Patrick Henry put it this way, "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
John Adams said it this way, “We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775] and he later explained, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
The point is this - it is historically indisputable that America was born One Nation under God. It does not require faith, but instead common logic to understand why. Men without a moral compass are incapable of long-term self-governance. The founders knew it because they had seen it. Few modern Americans have experienced what life would be like in a godless society, void of morality, so they question it. Many Americans place their trust in man over God, so they pursue it.
. . .
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Jose Fly
New member
I can't show that it wasn't set up as a nation under cheese either.
genuineoriginal
New member
Do you believe you were created by cheese?
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Declaration of Independence
. . .
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
. . .
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The government of the United States was instituted to secure the unalienable rights that all men are endowed with by their Creator.Declaration of Independence
. . .
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
. . .
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If you do a bit of research to find out what the writer meant by Creator, you will find out it means God, specifically the God of the Christian Bible.
That means that the United States was formed as a nation under God.
Jose Fly
New member
Nope, and I don't believe we were created by gods either.
Yet the actual document that serves as the framework for the government prohibits the government from establishing a religion, or for any elected office to have a religious test to fill it.
See the problem here? You keep saying that our government was supposed to be "under God", yet God isn't mentioned a single time in the Constitution, nor is the concept of the government being "under God".
So if the government really was supposed to be "under God", why isn't it anywhere in the Constitution? And why did the authors of the Constitution deliberately prohibit a religion-based government?
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes, this was discussed during the framing of the Constitution.
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Theophilus Parsons in the Massachusetts Ratification Convention Debates, 23 January 1788
…It has been objected, that the Constitution provides no religious test by oath, and we may
have in power unprincipled men, atheists and pagans. No man can wish more ardently than I
do, that all our publick offices may be filled by men who fear God and hate wickedness; but it
must remain with the electors to give the government this security—an oath will not do it: Will
an unprincipled man be entangled by an oath? Will an atheist or a pagan dread the vengeance
of the christian’s God, a being in his opinion the creature of fancy and credulity? It is a solecism
in expression. No man is so illiberal as to wish the confining places of honour or profit to any
one sect of christians: But what security is it to government, that every publick officer shall
swear that he is a christian? For what will then be called Christianity? One man will declare that
the christian religion is only an illumination of natural religion, and that he is a christian;
another christian will assert, that all men must be happy hereafter in spite of themselves; a
third christian reverses the image, and declares, that let a man do all he can, he will certainly be
punished in another world; and a fourth will tell us, that if a man use any force for the common
defence, he violates every principle of Christianity. Sir, the only evidence we can have of the
sincerity and excellency of a man’s religion, is a good life—and I trust that such evidence will be
required of every candidate by every elector. That man who acts an honest part to his
neighbour, will most probably conduct honourably towards the publick.
_____
Theophilus Parsons in the Massachusetts Ratification Convention Debates, 23 January 1788
…It has been objected, that the Constitution provides no religious test by oath, and we may
have in power unprincipled men, atheists and pagans. No man can wish more ardently than I
do, that all our publick offices may be filled by men who fear God and hate wickedness; but it
must remain with the electors to give the government this security—an oath will not do it: Will
an unprincipled man be entangled by an oath? Will an atheist or a pagan dread the vengeance
of the christian’s God, a being in his opinion the creature of fancy and credulity? It is a solecism
in expression. No man is so illiberal as to wish the confining places of honour or profit to any
one sect of christians: But what security is it to government, that every publick officer shall
swear that he is a christian? For what will then be called Christianity? One man will declare that
the christian religion is only an illumination of natural religion, and that he is a christian;
another christian will assert, that all men must be happy hereafter in spite of themselves; a
third christian reverses the image, and declares, that let a man do all he can, he will certainly be
punished in another world; and a fourth will tell us, that if a man use any force for the common
defence, he violates every principle of Christianity. Sir, the only evidence we can have of the
sincerity and excellency of a man’s religion, is a good life—and I trust that such evidence will be
required of every candidate by every elector. That man who acts an honest part to his
neighbour, will most probably conduct honourably towards the publick.
_____
Jose Fly
New member
No one.
Jose Fly
New member
I'm sure it was. And when the document was finalized, it deliberately mandated a non-religious government.
Jose Fly
New member
genuineoriginal
New member
Your statement is contradicted by the rulings of the Supreme Court during the first hundred years of the United States.
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Just where does the Constitution mention God?
. . .
Third, Supreme Court rulings for the entire first century of American existence boldly declared that "Christianity was a part of the common law of the land." In fact, the Constitution is only officially considered to be one of the fundamental laws of the United States. The Declaration of Independence is another and is so stated in the U.S. Code. As Samuel Adams put it: "Before the formation of the Constitution … this Declaration of Independence was received and ratified by all the states in the Union and has never been disannulled." The Declaration, which grounds our liberties upon God, was always considered to be interrelated to the Constitution in the same sense as articles of incorporation are related to the bylaws of a company. The Articles bring the entity into existence and the bylaws manage how that entity is to be run. Thus, the founders needed not place their sense of values in the Constitution since this had already been done in the Declaration.
. . .
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Just where does the Constitution mention God?
. . .
Third, Supreme Court rulings for the entire first century of American existence boldly declared that "Christianity was a part of the common law of the land." In fact, the Constitution is only officially considered to be one of the fundamental laws of the United States. The Declaration of Independence is another and is so stated in the U.S. Code. As Samuel Adams put it: "Before the formation of the Constitution … this Declaration of Independence was received and ratified by all the states in the Union and has never been disannulled." The Declaration, which grounds our liberties upon God, was always considered to be interrelated to the Constitution in the same sense as articles of incorporation are related to the bylaws of a company. The Articles bring the entity into existence and the bylaws manage how that entity is to be run. Thus, the founders needed not place their sense of values in the Constitution since this had already been done in the Declaration.
. . .
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moparguy
New member
We had this discussion before, you and I, wherein I didn't apply the standard hypocritically. I should dig that thread up.
Of course, the irony is that regardless of the monuments outside, the government always endorses a worldview, and it seems nobody these days cares one bit about discussing "religion" and "secularism" in clearly defined terms as worldviews. It's virtually always the emotional appeal and the insult tossing, instead of meaningful discussion.
Separation of church and state in the constitution has always and only meant that the CONGRESS can't establish a FEDERAL church (at the time of the creation and ratification of the constitution several states had ... state churches, which the constitution didn't make illegal) and the word "church" doesn't equate to "anything at all that smacks of God in any way' - and that's how the false definition of "church" is being applied; expunge God, he tweaks our consciences into working, we don't like that. Lucifer in town hall is ok, but get God out.
EDIT: it's also meant that the congress CAN'T MAKE ANY LAW regulating religion.
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ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Jose Fly
New member
??????? Did the Supreme Court insert language into the Constitution? If not, then my statement stands....the Constitution not only doesn't mention God, it deliberately precludes the government from establishing a religion, or there being any sort of religious test for public office.
Again, if the authors of the Constitution really wanted a Christian theocracy, why didn't they write that into the Constitution?