Oh No Not Another Apocalypse Thread By Chrysostom

Derf

Well-known member
Assyrian Church of the East is still Nestorian. These people still believe Christ is God. Not so for Islam.
From Christianity.com (I don't vouch for their content):
Nestorius maintained Jesus was really two separate persons, and only the human Jesus was in Mary's womb.

If Arianism says Jesus was not God and the God created Jesus, and Nestorians say Jesus was not God until some point after He was born, making Him only a created being, at least at first, I don't see why they couldn't come together at some point.

Islam denies that Jesus rose from the dead, and that He's not the savior of mankind, which is far removed from Arianism, I think. I understand the concern about the trinity, but you have to admit the doctrine is hard to understand. Even the Nicene Creed:
one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father,

Speaks of things that we don't understand in light of Jesus' eternality (begotten, not made; born of the Father)

I just don't see how it would go from "We don't understand how Jesus and God are one" to "Jesus didn't die on the cross, nor was resurrected" in Islam.
 

Nick M

Reconciled by the Cross
LIFETIME MEMBER
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The pre-tribulation coming of Christ is a necessary conclusion of a theology which maintains a strict separation between Israel and the church. Since our Lord identifies the tribulation with Daniel’s 70th week by citing “the abomination of desolation” from Daniel 9:27 and 11:31 within the context of the tribulation (Matthew 24:15-21), we are forced to conclude that “[Daniel’s] people,” the nation of Israel (Daniel 9:24 and 12:1), not the body of Christ, is the exclusive subject of Daniel’s prophecy. As we have shown, the purpose of this period is to purge Israel for her kingdom reign (Daniel 9:24; Zechariah 13:9). We must reiterate. The tribulation is specifically designated “a time of tribulation for Jacob” in Jeremiah 30:7.

Paul wrote the comforting passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, to the body of Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This whole thought was new to the Thessalonians. He had told them about many other things but not about the rapture. Notice, he wrote, “I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren. ”[17] Since this was new, we know it was not revealed in the Old Testament or in Christ’s Olivet discourse.[18] Further, they seemed more concerned about the condition of their dead loved ones than a theology of eschatology. He wrote this to comfort them so they would have hope in the resurrection of their loved ones, “lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.” But Paul not only comforted them, he went further. He showed them an event where they would be united with their loved ones in the air. Notice, Christ’s resurrection is based on our justification,[19] and our hope is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, “for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again.” Then he described the rapture. Please read it again.

14b -17 God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.....
Paul had comforted the Thessalonian believers with the hope of the rapture in his first letter. Because of the intensity of persecution, though, confusion had set in. These suffering believers were afraid that the awful day of the Lord had come upon them. When Paul learned that his teaching (5:4) had been misinterpreted, he wrote a second letter for clarification. In order to assure them they were not experiencing the day of the Lord, he extended a guarantee to them: that day cannot come “unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed” (2:3). The interpretation of Paul’s promise depends on the meaning of the word ajpostasiva. This noun is compounded from ajpov, “away from,” and stavsi", “position, stance”, from i{sthmi,stand.” Literally, the act of positioning oneself away is a departure or separation. That’s how we have rendered it. In secular Greek, this noun was used to refer to separatist political groups. From this sense, LXX employed it to denote “rebellion,” especially against God. Since James was familiar with the Greek Old Testament (he cites it in Acts 15:16-18 and Jam 2:23 and 4:6), it is probable that LXX usage underlies his phrase ajpostasiva from Moses” in Acts 21:21. However, his very phrase would be redundant if the concept of religious apostasy were inherent within the noun, for then he would not have defined the ajpostasiva as “from Moses.” From what other than Moses’ law could the Jew apostasize? While ajpostasiva was used in patristic sources in the technical sense of “apostasy,” the addition by James of the qualifying modifier suggests that in the New Testament, ajpostasiva does not carry that sense by itself.

Further, since the Thessalonians were recent converts from paganism, the relevance of LXX usage in Paul’s epistle to them is questionable. These believers would be more familiar with the noun’s Greek heritage. Liddell & Scott (1881:203) classify ajpostasiva as a “worse [later] form of ajpostavsi",” and give as one definition “distance.” Moulton and Milligan (1930:68) consider ajpostasiva “equivalent to ajpostavsi",” a noun commonly used in the sense of “departure.” Further, while the cognate verb ajfivsthmi sometimes describes a departure from godliness, it is often just the opposite:

In Acts 19:9, Paul departs from the unbelieving Jews.

In 1 Timothy 6:5, Paul instructs Timothy to depart from those who pervert the truth.

In 2 Timothy 2:19, those who name Christ’s name are to depart from iniquity.

Our understanding of ajpostasiva is supported by the syntax. The noun in this case has the definite article: “the departure.” The article cannot be generic; it must be anaphoric.[30] To what specific departure did Paul refer in Thessalonians? Had he discussed previously with them a specific time of apostasy? We see nothing of the sort in 1 Thessalonians. In contrast, the departure of the church is pre-eminent in the first epistle. Paul refers to this event and to our subsequent joy in Christ’s presence in 1:10, 2:19, 3:12 and 5:9,10, discussing it at length in 4:13-18. Within the immediate context of our noun, he writes of our gathering together with Christ (2 Th 2:1). We infer that Paul is referring back to a subject in which he has assiduously instructed his readers: “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.”

Our interpretation of ajpostasiva as “departure” better serves Paul’s purpose in writing this chapter. Those who interpret ajpostasiva as “apostasy” assume that Paul refers to this “apostasy” as a sign to warn the Thessalonians of Christ’s return. However, Paul’s purpose is not to warn them of His impending return, but to reassure them in their persecution that they need not worry about enduring the wrath of God. It is not they who will be left behind. The unbelievers who refused the truth will be left behind (2:11-12).
A little Bob Hill Greek lessons.

Acts 19

9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.


Strongs calls it

ἀποστὰς apostas
Chat GPT told me "departing" wasn't used anywhere in the NT from the root word. Because "Scholars" have authored thousands of pages refuting it.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
From Christianity.com (I don't vouch for their content):
Nestorius maintained Jesus was really two separate persons, and only the human Jesus was in Mary's womb.

If Arianism says Jesus was not God and the God created Jesus, and Nestorians say Jesus was not God until some point after He was born, making Him only a created being, at least at first, I don't see why they couldn't come together at some point.

Islam denies that Jesus rose from the dead, and that He's not the savior of mankind, which is far removed from Arianism, I think. I understand the concern about the trinity, but you have to admit the doctrine is hard to understand. Even the Nicene Creed:
one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father,

Speaks of things that we don't understand in light of Jesus' eternality (begotten, not made; born of the Father)

I just don't see how it would go from "We don't understand how Jesus and God are one" to "Jesus didn't die on the cross, nor was resurrected" in Islam.

Slippery slope? Unraveling the whole sweater by pulling on a single thread?

The last 100 years we've watched numerous Protestant branches and traditions plunging into radically heretical wokeism.

The Assyrian Church of the East hasn't made that descent, which means there's something preventing it.

Islam, if its seed was Arianism, certainly wouldn't have had whatever guardrails the Assyrian Church has, and that many Protestant branches and traditions do not have.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted it. Therefore, I know it is good. And remember, it is a translation.

A very important translation. The translation quoted in the New Testament. The translation which links the Hebrew Bible with the Greek New Testament, which ultimately helps us with how to render the English translation. It's like a partial Rosetta Stone. Invaluable.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I see too many people already dependent on it to do their analysis for them. If they don't have to do the work of bringing together information and making sense of it through their own thought processes, they'll forget (or never learn) how.
I can clearly remember them saying the exact same thing about Google.

Plus it's disturbing, the way many people connect with Chat GPT as if it's a real person who "knows" them well enough to give them the info they're looking for. A psychologist said they were competing with Chat GPT for their patients' attention - the psychologist tells them one thing and the patient says "well, I asked Chat GPT and Chat GPT said..."
GPT will tell you what you want to hear. It's not quite as intentional as social media sites but it is clearly present.

I see people who put too much faith in LLMs to be accurate when they're actually riddled with errors and hallucinations.
That's an overstatement. If it were so "riddled" with errors, it would never have taken off the way it has. The fact is that it is really a quite useful tool that can, like any other tool, be abused and used for purposes it was not intended for.

TV and social media has already made people passive receptors of sensory input, Chat GPT will be worse, because on top of feeding someone what they already want to hear based on their previous input to it that it's learned from, it will do so in a way that makes the user feel special. I don't see a good outcome.
The outcome has already been more positive than negative. You need to read a book about confirmation bias.
 
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