Oh No Not Another Apocalypse Thread By Chrysostom

Derf

Well-known member
Assyrian Church of the East is still Nestorian. These people still believe Christ is God. Not so for Islam.
From Christianity.com (I don't vouch for their content):
Nestorius maintained Jesus was really two separate persons, and only the human Jesus was in Mary's womb.

If Arianism says Jesus was not God and the God created Jesus, and Nestorians say Jesus was not God until some point after He was born, making Him only a created being, at least at first, I don't see why they couldn't come together at some point.

Islam denies that Jesus rose from the dead, and that He's not the savior of mankind, which is far removed from Arianism, I think. I understand the concern about the trinity, but you have to admit the doctrine is hard to understand. Even the Nicene Creed:
one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father,

Speaks of things that we don't understand in light of Jesus' eternality (begotten, not made; born of the Father)

I just don't see how it would go from "We don't understand how Jesus and God are one" to "Jesus didn't die on the cross, nor was resurrected" in Islam.
 

Nick M

Reconciled by the Cross
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
The pre-tribulation coming of Christ is a necessary conclusion of a theology which maintains a strict separation between Israel and the church. Since our Lord identifies the tribulation with Daniel’s 70th week by citing “the abomination of desolation” from Daniel 9:27 and 11:31 within the context of the tribulation (Matthew 24:15-21), we are forced to conclude that “[Daniel’s] people,” the nation of Israel (Daniel 9:24 and 12:1), not the body of Christ, is the exclusive subject of Daniel’s prophecy. As we have shown, the purpose of this period is to purge Israel for her kingdom reign (Daniel 9:24; Zechariah 13:9). We must reiterate. The tribulation is specifically designated “a time of tribulation for Jacob” in Jeremiah 30:7.

Paul wrote the comforting passage, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, to the body of Christ.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This whole thought was new to the Thessalonians. He had told them about many other things but not about the rapture. Notice, he wrote, “I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren. ”[17] Since this was new, we know it was not revealed in the Old Testament or in Christ’s Olivet discourse.[18] Further, they seemed more concerned about the condition of their dead loved ones than a theology of eschatology. He wrote this to comfort them so they would have hope in the resurrection of their loved ones, “lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.” But Paul not only comforted them, he went further. He showed them an event where they would be united with their loved ones in the air. Notice, Christ’s resurrection is based on our justification,[19] and our hope is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, “for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again.” Then he described the rapture. Please read it again.

14b -17 God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.....
Paul had comforted the Thessalonian believers with the hope of the rapture in his first letter. Because of the intensity of persecution, though, confusion had set in. These suffering believers were afraid that the awful day of the Lord had come upon them. When Paul learned that his teaching (5:4) had been misinterpreted, he wrote a second letter for clarification. In order to assure them they were not experiencing the day of the Lord, he extended a guarantee to them: that day cannot come “unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed” (2:3). The interpretation of Paul’s promise depends on the meaning of the word ajpostasiva. This noun is compounded from ajpov, “away from,” and stavsi", “position, stance”, from i{sthmi,stand.” Literally, the act of positioning oneself away is a departure or separation. That’s how we have rendered it. In secular Greek, this noun was used to refer to separatist political groups. From this sense, LXX employed it to denote “rebellion,” especially against God. Since James was familiar with the Greek Old Testament (he cites it in Acts 15:16-18 and Jam 2:23 and 4:6), it is probable that LXX usage underlies his phrase ajpostasiva from Moses” in Acts 21:21. However, his very phrase would be redundant if the concept of religious apostasy were inherent within the noun, for then he would not have defined the ajpostasiva as “from Moses.” From what other than Moses’ law could the Jew apostasize? While ajpostasiva was used in patristic sources in the technical sense of “apostasy,” the addition by James of the qualifying modifier suggests that in the New Testament, ajpostasiva does not carry that sense by itself.

Further, since the Thessalonians were recent converts from paganism, the relevance of LXX usage in Paul’s epistle to them is questionable. These believers would be more familiar with the noun’s Greek heritage. Liddell & Scott (1881:203) classify ajpostasiva as a “worse [later] form of ajpostavsi",” and give as one definition “distance.” Moulton and Milligan (1930:68) consider ajpostasiva “equivalent to ajpostavsi",” a noun commonly used in the sense of “departure.” Further, while the cognate verb ajfivsthmi sometimes describes a departure from godliness, it is often just the opposite:

In Acts 19:9, Paul departs from the unbelieving Jews.

In 1 Timothy 6:5, Paul instructs Timothy to depart from those who pervert the truth.

In 2 Timothy 2:19, those who name Christ’s name are to depart from iniquity.

Our understanding of ajpostasiva is supported by the syntax. The noun in this case has the definite article: “the departure.” The article cannot be generic; it must be anaphoric.[30] To what specific departure did Paul refer in Thessalonians? Had he discussed previously with them a specific time of apostasy? We see nothing of the sort in 1 Thessalonians. In contrast, the departure of the church is pre-eminent in the first epistle. Paul refers to this event and to our subsequent joy in Christ’s presence in 1:10, 2:19, 3:12 and 5:9,10, discussing it at length in 4:13-18. Within the immediate context of our noun, he writes of our gathering together with Christ (2 Th 2:1). We infer that Paul is referring back to a subject in which he has assiduously instructed his readers: “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.”

Our interpretation of ajpostasiva as “departure” better serves Paul’s purpose in writing this chapter. Those who interpret ajpostasiva as “apostasy” assume that Paul refers to this “apostasy” as a sign to warn the Thessalonians of Christ’s return. However, Paul’s purpose is not to warn them of His impending return, but to reassure them in their persecution that they need not worry about enduring the wrath of God. It is not they who will be left behind. The unbelievers who refused the truth will be left behind (2:11-12).
A little Bob Hill Greek lessons.

Acts 19

9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.


Strongs calls it

ἀποστὰς apostas
Chat GPT told me "departing" wasn't used anywhere in the NT from the root word. Because "Scholars" have authored thousands of pages refuting it.
 
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Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
From Christianity.com (I don't vouch for their content):
Nestorius maintained Jesus was really two separate persons, and only the human Jesus was in Mary's womb.

If Arianism says Jesus was not God and the God created Jesus, and Nestorians say Jesus was not God until some point after He was born, making Him only a created being, at least at first, I don't see why they couldn't come together at some point.

Islam denies that Jesus rose from the dead, and that He's not the savior of mankind, which is far removed from Arianism, I think. I understand the concern about the trinity, but you have to admit the doctrine is hard to understand. Even the Nicene Creed:
one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
consubstantial with the Father,

Speaks of things that we don't understand in light of Jesus' eternality (begotten, not made; born of the Father)

I just don't see how it would go from "We don't understand how Jesus and God are one" to "Jesus didn't die on the cross, nor was resurrected" in Islam.

Slippery slope? Unraveling the whole sweater by pulling on a single thread?

The last 100 years we've watched numerous Protestant branches and traditions plunging into radically heretical wokeism.

The Assyrian Church of the East hasn't made that descent, which means there's something preventing it.

Islam, if its seed was Arianism, certainly wouldn't have had whatever guardrails the Assyrian Church has, and that many Protestant branches and traditions do not have.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The Lord Jesus Christ quoted it. Therefore, I know it is good. And remember, it is a translation.

A very important translation. The translation quoted in the New Testament. The translation which links the Hebrew Bible with the Greek New Testament, which ultimately helps us with how to render the English translation. It's like a partial Rosetta Stone. Invaluable.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I see too many people already dependent on it to do their analysis for them. If they don't have to do the work of bringing together information and making sense of it through their own thought processes, they'll forget (or never learn) how.
I can clearly remember them saying the exact same thing about Google.

Plus it's disturbing, the way many people connect with Chat GPT as if it's a real person who "knows" them well enough to give them the info they're looking for. A psychologist said they were competing with Chat GPT for their patients' attention - the psychologist tells them one thing and the patient says "well, I asked Chat GPT and Chat GPT said..."
GPT will tell you what you want to hear. It's not quite as intentional as social media sites but it is clearly present.

I see people who put too much faith in LLMs to be accurate when they're actually riddled with errors and hallucinations.
That's an overstatement. If it were so "riddled" with errors, it would never have taken off the way it has. The fact is that it is really a quite useful tool that can, like any other tool, be abused and used for purposes it was not intended for.

TV and social media has already made people passive receptors of sensory input, Chat GPT will be worse, because on top of feeding someone what they already want to hear based on their previous input to it that it's learned from, it will do so in a way that makes the user feel special. I don't see a good outcome.
The outcome has already been more positive than negative. You need to read a book about confirmation bias.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
A little Bob Hill Greek lessons.

Acts 19

9 But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.


Strongs calls it


Chat GPT told me "departing" wasn't used anywhere in the NT from the root word. Because "Scholars" have authored thousands of pages refuting it.
I think the definite article being present is the thing that pushes the balance over to the side of "the departure" being the correct translation. There simply isn't any other eschatological event that it could be referring to. Any other event anyone might try to point to has to do with Israel's prophesied program. If interpreting Paul in light of Israel's program is valid then there's no basis for believing in a rapture to begin with, which moots the point.

Therefore...

IF Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is true then Paul was certainly referring to what we call the rapture.

I say, "IF" only because if I didn't someone would show up to instantly accuse me of begging the question. In fact, there's going to be someone who at least wants to make that claim anyway so let me just explain why it isn't question begging. Not that any such explanation should be necessary but there are some people on TOL who like to pretend like they know what they're talking about. So here goes nothing...

The argument is as follows...
  • If Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is true,
  • Then any interpretive framework that depends on Israel’s prophetic program informing Church doctrine is invalid,
  • Therefore, appeals to Matthew 24 or Daniel 9 to explain Paul’s use of apostasia are inconsistent within a Mid-Acts framework.
  • Thus, within that framework, interpreting apostasia as the Rapture (based on its immediate context) is more coherent than importing a prophetic “apostasy” from Israel’s program.
That very clearly isn't question begging, it's simply conditional reasoning.

For it to be question begging the argument would have to be much more circular...

“We know ‘apostasia’ means the Rapture because Mid-Acts is true, and we know Mid-Acts is true because ‘apostasia’ means the Rapture,”

...or something goofy like that.



And so, once again, each and every time I even entertain the notion that Bob Enyart might have gotten something wrong, I end up with the taste of crow in my mouth! It's interesting how I don't mind it!
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
GPT will tell you what you want to hear. It's not quite as intentional as social media sites but it is clearly present.

It's very intentional. From the link I posted upthread:

Anyone who has spent much time with chatbots will recognize that they tend to be sycophantic. Sometimes, this is blatant. Earlier this year, OpenAI rolled back an update to ChatGPT after the bot became weirdly overeager to please its users, complimenting even the most comically bad or dangerous ideas. “I am so proud of you,” it reportedly told one user who said they had gone off their meds. “It takes immense courage to walk away from the easy, comfortable path others try to force you onto.” But indulgence of the user is a feature, not a bug. Chatbots built for commercial purposes are not typically intended to challenge your thoughts; they are intended to receive them, offer pleasing responses, and keep you coming back.


That's an overstatement. If it were so "riddled" with errors, it would never have taken off the way it has. The fact is that it is really a quite useful tool that can, like any other tool, be abused and used for purposes it was not intended for.

Reading up on LLM hallucinations may change your mind. This isn't about it being abused and used for purposes not intended, it's about LLMs literally making stuff up when it doesn't know the answer. You ask it something it doesn't know and it will confidently make it up. Take a court case against Walmart recently where lawyers at a prominent law firm used AI to write their citations and it made up two fictitious cases. This has happened in multiple court cases now, around the country.

If you trust what it tells you without verifying it, you're giving it more trust than it deserves but that's on you.

Now - about nefarious purposes:

The cottage industry quietly manipulating chatbots’ replies

Superpowers are exploiting a new front in the world’s propaganda wars

Global superpowers, rogue states and multinational corporations are all quietly seeking to influence the replies that artificial intelligence (AI) systems generate for the public.​
It comes as millions of people increasingly turn to AI bots, known as large language models (LLMs), to find information and carry out research. . . .​
Last month, US documents revealed that the Israeli government had signed a $6m (£4.6m) contract with Clock Tower X to combat anti-Semitism in America.​
The company, founded by Brad Parscale, an ally of Donald Trump, offers services such as “GPT framing”, a reference to influencing AI bots’ output, through publishing websites and other content that the chatbots use when answering questions.​
US documents revealed Brad Parscale’s company, Clock Tower X, signed a $6m contract with the Israeli government Credit: Eric Gay/AP​
The company has not given details on how it expects to influence chatbots, but said it would work with media organisations such as the Christian broadcaster Salem Media Network.​
Russian propaganda campaigns have already infiltrated AI systems in order to spread misinformation about the war in Ukraine, according to Newsguard, a company that aims to rate the reliability of online news.​
A study by the company in March found that some 3.6 million Russian propaganda articles appeared to have been ingested by Western AI systems through a group of websites known as the Pravda network – a reference to the Russian word for truth.
The researchers said the websites appeared designed chiefly to manipulate AI systems, which work by relying on huge quantities of data from millions of sites.
The Pravda network has almost no human traffic, but publishes industrial quantities of news articles, acting as a “laundering machine” for Kremlin talking points.
Newsguard found that leading chatbots including ChatGPT, Google’s Gemini and Elon Musk’s xAI would often parrot claims from the sites, including that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian president, had bought Adolf Hitler’s Eagle’s Nest retreat and that Ukrainian troops had burned an effigy of Donald Trump.​
Earlier this year, John Mark Dougan, an American who fled to Russia and has become a prominent Kremlin propagandist, said: “By pushing these Russian narratives from the Russian perspective, we can actually change worldwide AI.”
Lukasz Olejnik, a researcher who has studied AI disinformation, says that influencing chatbots is a key goal because users are much more likely to trust the output of a chatbot than an unknown website – even if it was the unknown website that influenced the chatbot.
“It’s info-laundry; instead of reading a fishy site, you see it on a ‘respected’ AI output,” he says.​
While chatbots often provide links to the websites they reference, few users verify them: one study from the Pew Research Centre found that people using Google’s AI summaries would click through to the source material less than 1pc of the time.​




You need to read a book about confirmation bias.

You need to take your own advice.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." Has anyone explained Revelation 15:2? Constantinople used Greek fire on the Sea of Marmara which was like a sheet of glass and the year was 666.
Enter the Julian calendar, the death of Julius Caesar 44 BC, and the Hijra 622 CE. That would be 666 of the Julian Calendar.
Gibbon has Islam attacking Constantinople 46 years after the Hijra. Put 46 in an Islamic calendar converter and you get 666.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
It's very intentional. From the link I posted upthread:

Anyone who has spent much time with chatbots will recognize that they tend to be sycophantic. Sometimes, this is blatant. Earlier this year, OpenAI rolled back an update to ChatGPT after the bot became weirdly overeager to please its users, complimenting even the most comically bad or dangerous ideas. “I am so proud of you,” it reportedly told one user who said they had gone off their meds. “It takes immense courage to walk away from the easy, comfortable path others try to force you onto.” But indulgence of the user is a feature, not a bug. Chatbots built for commercial purposes are not typically intended to challenge your thoughts; they are intended to receive them, offer pleasing responses, and keep you coming back.
There is no doubt that it is programmed to be agreeable but that isn't the same thing as it being programmed to agree with you. I have first hand experience here. There's several times that GPT has told me that what I had presented was false or that an argument is weak and explained why and how to improve it.

As I said before, if it was as flawed as you are pretending it to be, no one would care anything about it. It wouldn't be a company worth a half trillion dollars or even ten percent of that number.

Reading up on LLM hallucinations may change your mind. This isn't about it being abused and used for purposes not intended, it's about LLMs literally making stuff up when it doesn't know the answer.
You contradict yourself. There is no such thing as someone using a chatbot in a manner in which it's intended to be used who asks it a question it doesn't know the answer to. The exceptions to that are going to be very rare. All of those exceptions can, however, be compiled into one huge stack of issues and presented in a propaganda piece designed to fool people who cannot think for themselves that all chatbots are worthless or worse, that they're evil.

In short, if your chatbot is hallucinating, then there's a very good chance you're trying to use it as your surrogate brain or in some other way it was never intended to be used for.

You ask it something it doesn't know and it will confidently make it up.
False - as stated.

At most it would be accurate to state that, " You ask it something it doesn't know and it MIGHT confidently make it up."

This issue has actually already been addressed to a significant degree. With later models (e.g. GPT 4o and GPT 5) it still happens but not as much. Not only that, but if you are using the bot properly, such hallucinations are instantly detectable. If anyone is ever fooled into believing something based on a chatbot hallucination, it is proof possitive that they were using the bot for purposes it was not designed for. Which is a problem, to be sure, but so is someone using a gun to murder people with. It doesn't mean the gun is the problem. The user is the problem.

Take a court case against Walmart recently where lawyers at a prominent law firm used AI to write their citations and it made up two fictitious cases. This has happened in multiple court cases now, around the country.

If you trust what it tells you without verifying it, you're giving it more trust than it deserves but that's on you.
So what you just said is that if you are using chat GPT in ways its not intended to be use - that's on you.

Thank you for conceding the point.

You see, the thing you're implying about chatbots here is functionally impossible. These chatbots are not algorithm based like social media sites. They are fundamentally probabilistic. There is no real thought happening. There is no actual understanding. They generate text by estimating what words and phrases are likely given the prompt and training data, not by “looking up” a verifiable database of facts or interacting with a preprogrammed algorithm. Errors of the sort you are describing are more likely when the training data is incomplete, ambiguous, contradictory or outdated, or when the prompt pushes it into territory it was not well trained for and when the task its being asked to perform is very complex.

In short, if you push a machine past its design parameters, it's not a conspiracy when it malfunctions or breaks.

Now - about nefarious purposes:

The cottage industry quietly manipulating chatbots’ replies

Superpowers are exploiting a new front in the world’s propaganda wars

Global superpowers, rogue states and multinational corporations are all quietly seeking to influence the replies that artificial intelligence (AI) systems generate for the public.​
It comes as millions of people increasingly turn to AI bots, known as large language models (LLMs), to find information and carry out research. . . .​
Last month, US documents revealed that the Israeli government had signed a $6m (£4.6m) contract with Clock Tower X to combat anti-Semitism in America.​
The company, founded by Brad Parscale, an ally of Donald Trump, offers services such as “GPT framing”, a reference to influencing AI bots’ output, through publishing websites and other content that the chatbots use when answering questions.​
US documents revealed Brad Parscale’s company, Clock Tower X, signed a $6m contract with the Israeli government Credit: Eric Gay/AP​
The company has not given details on how it expects to influence chatbots, but said it would work with media organisations such as the Christian broadcaster Salem Media Network.​
Russian propaganda campaigns have already infiltrated AI systems in order to spread misinformation about the war in Ukraine, according to Newsguard, a company that aims to rate the reliability of online news.​
A study by the company in March found that some 3.6 million Russian propaganda articles appeared to have been ingested by Western AI systems through a group of websites known as the Pravda network – a reference to the Russian word for truth.
The researchers said the websites appeared designed chiefly to manipulate AI systems, which work by relying on huge quantities of data from millions of sites.
The Pravda network has almost no human traffic, but publishes industrial quantities of news articles, acting as a “laundering machine” for Kremlin talking points.
Newsguard found that leading chatbots including ChatGPT, Google’s Gemini and Elon Musk’s xAI would often parrot claims from the sites, including that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Ukrainian president, had bought Adolf Hitler’s Eagle’s Nest retreat and that Ukrainian troops had burned an effigy of Donald Trump.​
Earlier this year, John Mark Dougan, an American who fled to Russia and has become a prominent Kremlin propagandist, said: “By pushing these Russian narratives from the Russian perspective, we can actually change worldwide AI.”
Lukasz Olejnik, a researcher who has studied AI disinformation, says that influencing chatbots is a key goal because users are much more likely to trust the output of a chatbot than an unknown website – even if it was the unknown website that influenced the chatbot.
“It’s info-laundry; instead of reading a fishy site, you see it on a ‘respected’ AI output,” he says.​
While chatbots often provide links to the websites they reference, few users verify them: one study from the Pew Research Centre found that people using Google’s AI summaries would click through to the source material less than 1pc of the time.​
Like I said, when you take leave of the objective nature of truth, you can and will find whatever "truth" you happen to be looking for.

You need to take your own advice.
If it weren't so stunningly, perversely, tragically, idiotic, that would be funny!
 
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Nick M

Reconciled by the Cross
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
A very important translation. The translation quoted in the New Testament. The translation which links the Hebrew Bible with the Greek New Testament, which ultimately helps us with how to render the English translation. It's like a partial Rosetta Stone. Invaluable.
Go read the "King James Only" Battle Royal here. Specifically, look at the notes from those that say it isn't KJB.
 

Nick M

Reconciled by the Cross
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
That's an overstatement. If it were so "riddled" with errors, it would never have taken off the way it has.
I positioned myself and questions to get to the root, and it contradicted itself from telling me it wasn't used anywhere else in the NT. I have a tangent, and in my opinion, it is a good one.

 
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