No one has asked for proof, until now!

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Same old TOL I see!

A point of clarification:

If by "standing behind an accusation" one means "place a very high stakes wager on the veracity of the accusation," then I think they are mistaken. There are any number of things I believe. There are any number of things I believe about certain people, good and bad. Opting out of a high-stakes wager regarding those beliefs does not somehow incriminate me or entail that I am lying. It simply means that I do not consider myself sure enough to place such a wager, or that I am not especially interested in the prize of the wager. So you could say sod's refusal shows something, but you cannot in good faith say that it simply shows him to be a liar or a coward. The exchange is even somewhat comical to me:

TH: I am a lawyer.
Sod: I don't believe you. Prove it.
TH: I don't believe that you don't believe me. Prove it.
Sod: You're full of crap, else you would have proved it.
TH: You're full of crap, else you would have proved it.

:eek:

Well, two things zips.

TH's credentials as a lawyer have pretty much been established through his tenure here already and also attested to by others who would gladly vouch for it.

TH isn't the one constantly snarking and defaming the other. If you're going to constantly persist in calling someone a 'pretend' something or other then you should at least have the guts to stand by it when you're put on the spot?

:e4e:
 

resurrected

BANNED
Banned
artie for instance likes to pretend he's a retard :chuckle:


maybe he really is a retard, maybe he isn't

i don't really care :idunno:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Well, two things zips.

TH's credentials as a lawyer have pretty much been established through his tenure here already and also attested to by others who would gladly vouch for it.

TH isn't the one constantly snarking and defaming the other. If you're going to constantly persist in calling someone a 'pretend' something or other then you should at least have the guts to stand by it when you're put on the spot?

:e4e:
Thanks. And zip's model isn't really in line with what happened.

TH: I am a lawyer.
Sod: I don't believe you. Prove it.
Rather, I'd noted my credentials when discussing the law with laymen. Outside of that context Sod began to say, as a barb and repeatedly, that I was pretending to be one. He not only didn't ask for proof, he ran from anything like it because the whole point was to defame without regard for the truth or falsity of the charge.

TH: I don't believe that you don't believe me. Prove it.
No. I offered AMR, a member whose integrity has been well established and who could and subsequently did vouch for my bona fides. Sod continued to repeat the charge, ignoring that.

THEN I said he knew better and supported my belief on the point by making a simple wager. I'd produce incontrovertible proof to a third party, Knight, and if I did he agreed to a permanent ban. If I couldn't I would take a permanent ban.

Sod: You're full of crap, else you would have proved it.
So that's wrong. He never asked for it or accepted an offer that established it (why would I offer else?).

TH: You're full of crap, else you would have proved it.
Closer would be, "You're full of crap." The why had been established earlier.

So this 50/50 representation is...mistaken.
 

zippy2006

New member
TH's credentials as a lawyer have pretty much been established through his tenure here already and also attested to by others who would gladly vouch for it.

But if someone truly doesn't believe he is a lawyer, why would that convince him? There is no proof in any of it, is there? And the attestation is by no means from mutually respected sources.

TH isn't the one constantly snarking and defaming the other. If you're going to constantly persist in calling someone a 'pretend' something or other then you should at least have the guts to stand by it when you're put on the spot?

But I just laid out a reasoned argument as to why "Having the guts to stand by it" can't automatically mean "Accept a high stakes wager." Some seem to be saying, "Sod you are a coward because you won't make this wager." That seems to me to be poor reasoning, and I laid out why above.

He not only didn't ask for proof, he ran from anything like it because the whole point was to defame without regard for the truth or falsity of the charge.

Perhaps this or some variant of it is correct, and yet, supposing my argument above holds, the defamation runs in both directions. Properly speaking though, I think it is a form of trolling, not primarily defamation, and I don't mean "trolling" in a merely pejorative sense. Regardless, the responses to the apparently misidentified--and therefore successful--trolling are not qualitatively commensurate to the inciting act. And that is what I find so odd about this ongoing ...adventure. :eek: Like I've said before, the reliably fueling responses cannot help but cause one to consider the trolling in a non-pejorative sense, precisely because its end is so readily achieved.

But since you just scrupulously dissected that in unthinking disagreement, why not just cut to the chase? Why does sod dislike you so much? Where are the roots?

a. Because sod is evil and you are good. The darkness hates the light.
b. Because something in you is disagreeable and particularly sour to sod.

Last I checked, TOL is split on the issue. I think the answer is fairly obvious, though not uncomplicated. You don't give (b) near enough attention. In that way you are like the pagan fellow who looks at the cross and says, "I may not be the greatest guy, I may have my faults, but my sin is not so great as to require/cause that!"

And I don't think sod takes his own sin in this debacle at all seriously enough. Defaming or inciting someone is a serious sin, and cannot be used as a means to any end.

Dostoyevsky's paradox placed in the mouth of Alyosha Karamazov is quite right, "No, I was the cause of it all, I am terribly to blame!" Grace gave him the sight to see that fact. I continue to hope that you will both see it soon.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Were you expecting cartoon avatars with overly large eyes? :idunno:
:chuckle:

Thanks. And zip's model isn't really in line with what happened.

Rather, I'd noted my credentials when discussing the law with laymen. Outside of that context Sod began to say, as a barb and repeatedly, that I was pretending to be one. He not only didn't ask for proof, he ran from anything like it because the whole point was to defame without regard for the truth or falsity of the charge.

No. I offered AMR, a member whose integrity has been well established and who could and subsequently did vouch for my bona fides. Sod continued to repeat the charge, ignoring that.

THEN I said he knew better and supported my belief on the point by making a simple wager. I'd produce incontrovertible proof to a third party, Knight, and if I did he agreed to a permanent ban. If I couldn't I would take a permanent ban.

So that's wrong. He never asked for it or accepted an offer that established it (why would I offer else?).

Closer would be, "You're full of crap." The why had been established earlier.

So this 50/50 representation is...mistaken.
:sozo:WHO CARES?!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
WHO CARES?!
Who asked you to care? Don't read it. :idunno:

Who cares? I do. When someone doesn't set out something with my name attached to it correctly I'm going to correct the mistake. Else, I guess AB and zip, since they were the ones talking about it.


But if someone truly doesn't believe he is a lawyer, why would that convince him?
The question should be, is it reasonable to hold that opinion? And if it isn't, why is it being held?

There is no proof in any of it, is there?
To a reasonable man there is reason to believe, to apply a razor and come to the most likely result even absent documentation, more so given that documentation is offered.

And the attestation is by no means from mutually respected sources.
Look, Sod could say the only source he respects/believes is himself. Doesn't make it reasonable. A man of God, a man of good and long standing has given his attestation on the point. It's unreasonable to suspect that evidence without some substantive argument in support of the doubt.

Some seem to be saying, "Sod you are a coward because you won't make this wager." That seems to me to be poor reasoning, and I laid out why above.
I think it reduces, more accurately, to a demonstration that he lacks the courage of what he passes as his conviction but is, to anyone seriously examining his record, only a continuation of a poor method.

But since you just scrupulously dissected that in unthinking disagreement,
Rather I honestly corrected a mistakenly or intentionally skewed misrepresentation of the dispute.

why not just cut to the chase? Why does sod dislike you so much? Where are the roots?
I've set that out more than once over the length of our differences. Anyone following much of our disagreement should know that. Anyone not possessing that degree of familiarity with our exchanges doesn't likely have enough of an understanding of what and why to speak intelligently to it. It makes them much more likely to grab the tail of it the elephant and believe they have a snake.

a. Because sod is evil and you are good.
I don't subscribe to that point of view. I'd put it this way, because long ago I disagreed with his race baiting, mistakenly went to him as a friend and called for him to be and do better than that and when he refused declared my intent to oppose him on that whenever I noted it. It went downhill quickly, beginning with his easy transition from declaring my opposition "game playing" to crying retard and culminating in the ever popular, "Seek Christ" attack on the sincerity of my faith.

He's already begun doing much the same to others who've taken strong stands against his practice. So it isn't a question of me reading in as a practice. He's recently called bybee a pretend Christian. Anna had that treatment a while ago. He eventually does that to people who insist on speaking against his methodology. I simply got there a few years ago. So it's a longer, deeper anger with me. And there may be an element attached to my profession, which plays a role in his "pretend" business and also surfaced in a long, strident attack on that profession prior to finding that note. Or it may be something simpler, an anger fueled by my habit of cutting at that practice with sarcastic humor.

No one likes to be laughed at. No one likes to be insulted. And responding to a low, crude insult with a humorous, sarcastic barb may not be as malicious, but it's likely as or more wounding.

b. Because something in you is disagreeable and particularly sour to sod.
Supra.

Last I checked, TOL is split on the issue.
Depends on how loosely you're using the term. I know a lot of people were tired of the feud, but I don't know how many people followed most of it, so many missed the worst of what he had to offer. Some of them have had an education on that in this incarnation, given the Balzacian outpouring of angry one offs (frequently approaching a hundred in a day) has given many here, like bybee or our mutual friend, a real eye opening.

Given I haven't called his faith into question, given I have both forgiven his treatment of me and professed my belief that he could and should have a powerful witness here, that I stand ready and desirous of us having the relation that those in Christ should have and given that TOL is a mostly Christian affair, I'd hope most would be pulling for my hope and be able to distinguish it from his incessant method.

I think the answer is fairly obvious, though not uncomplicated. You don't give (b) near enough attention.
I expect you'd think that. But you have a habit of missing the mark when you try to state my part. You miss it here.

And I don't think sod takes his own sin in this debacle at all seriously enough. Defaming or inciting someone is a serious sin, and cannot be used as a means to any end.
I suspect he's working out a frustration that is neatly summed in me and/or in my profession, compounding his normal response to opposition on principle and taking it, between us, to absurd levels.

We were friends for a good while. The difference began with that stand.

Dostoyevsky's paradox placed in the mouth of Alyosha Karamazov is quite right, "No, I was the cause of it all, I am terribly to blame!" Grace gave him the sight to see that fact. I continue to hope that you will both see it soon.
I find fault in how I objected, but I was right to object. I find fault in how long it took me to forgive and to extend a hand of reconciliation, but I note his determination to continue regardless and wonder if it would have mattered. I don't believe it would. I don't see him responding to much more careful and long suffering attempts by some I've already mentioned who are already being treated to the edge of his contempt for opposition.

So forgiveness and a call to the better angel in him results in being told Satan is speaking through me and that though I profess Christ I lack Christ. When someone is that deeply entrenched in their anger you can't reach them. Then it belongs to God.

I've put Sod on ignore. Unlike my prior efforts, absent some reason to believe he has relented in his practice and desires the relationship Christ would have between us, I will never undo it. It may be the kindest thing I can do for him.
 
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Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Who asked you to care? Don't read it. :idunno:
The real question is, why do you care? Nobody buys what he's selling, but you keep giving him what he wants, which is more attention. So he keeps doing it, knowing that you will continue to play into his hand and set out to "set it straight," when it doesn't need to be set straight.

Do you honestly think you needed to post a response of that length to zippy about the whole thing? Really?:doh:

I pity you, your weakness and your fragile ego. Maybe almost as much as I pity res and his immaturity.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The real question is, why do you care? Nobody buys what he's selling, but you keep giving him what he wants, which is more attention.
Oh. Well I wasn't answering him then, was I? I was objecting, politely, to how zip was setting it out. I've put Sod on ignore and, as I related in my last, will not remove him from it absent reason to think his heart has changed on our reconciliation as brothers in Christ.

I see anything else as destructive. Late to that, but that's why God had to shake me to begin with to get my attention. I can over think a thing to death and miss the point of it completely. I did that in arguing with and against him for years.

We all have our limitations. And they usually bite us at some point or repeatedly.

Do you honestly think you needed to post a response of that length to zippy about the whole thing? Really?:doh:
Yeah, I do.

I pity you, your weakness
Rather, have compassion for it and loving counsel to help me with it if it is and if it isn't then have a greatness of mind and spirit enough to see the flaw that caused you to think it. Either way we'll both benefit by it.

and your fragile ego.
Valuing personal honor and wanting to be understood clearly isn't a sign of ego or fragility, LH. That said, every one of us is fragile. We all wound and bruise and bleed, quietly or loudly on one point or another. Some only pretend not to...or else, God help them, they really don't. Those will never understand compassion or grace.

Maybe almost as much as I pity res and his immaturity.
I don't know if that's his demon. I think he's hurting. I think I've hurt him and I'm sorry for it, whatever he's done. I'm tired of being a part of that and I don't mean to be again.

And I hope you stop calling people morons and fags who are neither. For that matter, I hope you stop calling them that when they are.

God help us both. :e4e:
 

Eeset

.
LIFETIME MEMBER
Who asked you to care? Don't read it. :idunno:
Who cares? I do. When someone doesn't set out something with my name attached to it correctly I'm going to correct the mistake. Else, I guess AB and zip, since they were the ones talking about it.
The question should be, is it reasonable to hold that opinion? And if it isn't, why is it being held?
To a reasonable man there is reason to believe, to apply a razor and come to the most likely result even absent documentation, more so given that documentation is offered.
Look, Sod could say the only source he respects/believes is himself. Doesn't make it reasonable. A man of God, a man of good and long standing has given his attestation on the point. It's unreasonable to suspect that evidence without some substantive argument in support of the doubt.
I think it reduces, more accurately, to a demonstration that he lacks the courage of what he passes as his conviction but is, to anyone seriously examining his record, only a continuation of a poor method.
Rather I honestly corrected a mistakenly or intentionally skewed misrepresentation of the dispute.
I've set that out more than once over the length of our differences. Anyone following much of our disagreement should know that. Anyone not possessing that degree of familiarity with our exchanges doesn't likely have enough of an understanding of what and why to speak intelligently to it. It makes them much more likely to grab the tail of it the elephant and believe they have a snake.
I don't subscribe to that point of view. I'd put it this way, because long ago I disagreed with his race baiting, mistakenly went to him as a friend and called for him to be and do better than that and when he refused declared my intent to oppose him on that whenever I noted it. It went downhill quickly, beginning with his easy transition from declaring my opposition "game playing" to crying retard and culminating in the ever popular, "Seek Christ" attack on the sincerity of my faith.
He's already begun doing much the same to others who've taken strong stands against his practice. So it isn't a question of me reading in as a practice. He's recently called bybee a pretend Christian. Anna had that treatment a while ago. He eventually does that to people who insist on speaking against his methodology. I simply got there a few years ago. So it's a longer, deeper anger with me. And there may be an element attached to my profession, which plays a role in his "pretend" business and also surfaced in a long, strident attack on that profession prior to finding that note. Or it may be something simpler, an anger fueled by my habit of cutting at that practice with sarcastic humor.
No one likes to be laughed at. No one likes to be insulted. And responding to a low, crude insult with a humorous, sarcastic barb may not me as malicious, but it's likely as or more wounding.
Supra.
Depends on how loosely you're using the term. I know a lot of people were tired of the feud, but I don't know how many people followed most of it, so many missed the worst of what he had to offer. Some of them have had an education on that in this incarnation, given the Balzacian outpouring of angry one offs (frequently approaching a hundred in a day) has given many here, like bybee or our mutual friend, a real eye opening.
Given I haven't called his faith into question, given I have both forgiven his treatment of me and professed my belief that he could and should have a powerful witness here, that I stand ready and desirous of us having the relation that those in Christ should have and given that TOL is a mostly Christian affair, I'd hope most would be pulling for my hope and be able to distinguish it from his incessant method.
I expect you'd think that. But you have a habit of missing the mark when you try to state my part. You miss it here.
I suspect he's working out a frustration that is neatly summed in me and/or in my profession, compounding his normal response to opposition on principle and taking it, between us, to absurd levels.
We were friends for a good while. The difference began with that stand.
I find fault in how I objected, but I was right to object. I find fault in how long it took me to forgive and to extend a hand of reconciliation, but I note his determination to continue regardless and wonder if it would have mattered. I don't believe it would. I don't see him responding to much more careful and long suffering attempts by some I've already mentioned who are already being treated to the edge of his contempt for opposition.
So forgiveness and a call to the better angel in him results in being told Satan is speaking through me and that though I profess Christ I lack Christ. When someone is that deeply entrenched in their anger you can't reach them. Then it belongs to God.
I've put Sod on ignore. Unlike my prior efforts, absent some reason to believe he has relented in his practice and desires the relationship Christ would have between us, I will never undo it. It may be the kindest thing I can do for him.

No.
 

Rusha

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Who asked you to care? Don't read it. :idunno:

Who cares? I do. When someone doesn't set out something with my name attached to it correctly I'm going to correct the mistake. Else, I guess AB and zip, since they were the ones talking about it.

As pertaining to SOD and his intentional lies about you, everyone knows exactly what he is doing and why he does it. It's to get a response.

The only responses Koban/Sod/whateverhisnamewillbenextweek is worthy of receiving are those replies that are dismissive and loaded with sarcasm.
 

resurrected

BANNED
Banned
Nobody buys what he's selling

here's what i'm selling:

1. i don't care if town's a lawyer or if he's just pretending to be a lawyer. there's no way to prove it.

2. town may be a Christian, he may not be. only God knows for sure. what i know is that i see no evidence of it from town's behavior.

buy as much of that as you like


oh yes, and for some reason, 1 and 2 cause a great deal of angst to annaartiebybeerushazoo



Do you honestly think you needed to post a response of that length to zippy about the whole thing? Really?:doh:

yes, he does

it's one of his tells - the length of his responses and the language he uses

it means zippy's on territory that town's sensitive about

if zippy cared to, he could push him, back him into a corner and pound him into silt

but that's not zippy's style
 

doloresistere

New member
Why is it that the defaming done by res gets all the attention when I have seen the most hateful words that would cause weaker souls to commit suicide come out of granites mouth. TH is solid in his self esteem and I cannot imagine him suffering that much from RES's taunts. However, what granite does is aimed directly at the foundation of some peoples value of themselves. I have never seen res go after a weak minded soul. I am not excusing his behavior but setting it in perspective.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Why is it the defaming done by red gets all the attention when I have seen the mist hateful words that would cause weaker souls to commit suicide come out of granites mouth. TH is solid in his self esteem and I cannot imagine him suffering that much from RES's taunts. However, what granite does is aimed directly at the foundation of some peoples value of themselves. I have never seen res go after a weak minded soul. I am not excusing his behavior but setting it in perspective.
It is strange that Res picked TH as a target. :idunno:

I don't like picking any targets. Just cruise the forums and find discussions to participate in. I say what I wanna say... and then move on. :)
 

doloresistere

New member
here's what i'm selling:

1. i don't care if town's a lawyer or if he's just pretending to be a lawyer. there's no way to prove it.

2. town may be a Christian, he may not be. only God knows for sure. what i know is that i see no evidence of it from town's behavior.

buy as much of that as you like


oh yes, and for some reason, 1 and 2 cause a great deal of angst to annaartiebybeerushazoo





yes, he does

it's one of his tells - the length of his responses and the language he uses

it means zippy's on territory that town's sensitive about

if zippy cared to, he could push him, back him into a corner and pound him into silt

but that's not zippy's style

Nobody can pound TH into silt. Why are you so eager for it to happen? Its jealousy in my opinion. YH has a tremendous intellect and can answer any and all who try to trip him up. Not everybody has that talent. Everyone has there on specific talent and rhetoric is towns.
 

resurrected

BANNED
Banned
Nobody can pound TH into silt

done it myself three years ago by adopting his style

he slunk off butthurt for a whole month

. Why are you so eager for it to happen?

it's his own expression for what he thinks he's doing to people when he attacks them

like i said, i just turned it back on him when i was some other dude

the hurt feelings still linger

Everyone has there on specific talent and rhetoric is towns.

empty rhetoric if you look closely enough

for example, take some time and deconstruct his responses to zippy
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
There are too many threads in the forum that are about the forum itself.
 
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