ECT No freewill, you say? God decrees faith?

Word based mystic

Word based mystic

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2 kings 13:19 Then he said, "Take the arrows," and he took them. And he said to the king of Israel, "Strike the ground," and he struck it three times and stopped. 19So the man of God was angry with him and said, "You should have struck five or six times, then you would have struck Aram until you would have destroyed it. But now you shall strike Aram only three times." 20Elisha died, and they buried him. Now the bands of the Moabites would invade the land in the spring of the year.…

This does a good job of reaffirming free will involving faith and IF, Then premises
 
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Word based mystic said:
2 kings 13:19 Then he said, "Take the arrows," and he took them. And he said to the king of Israel, "Strike the ground," and he struck it three times and stopped. 19So the man of God was angry with him and said, "You should have struck five or six times, then you would have struck Aram until you would have destroyed it. But now you shall strike Aram only three times." 20Elisha died, and they buried him. Now the bands of the Moabites would invade the land in the spring of the year.…

This does a good job of reaffirming free will involving faith and IF, Then premises
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Indeed, it does. It certainly points up the "self-serving" shortsighted mindset of one given to over to vanity, anxious for only immediate gratification. Thanks, WBM.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

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The necessity for our free will is to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make those who sin truly guilty before GOD.

The Bible indicates very often that we are enslaved to sin's addictive power and so our free will is non-existent on earth.

By rejecting that we had a time of free will pre-sin while we were ingenuously innocent pre-earth, Calvinists are force to accept that because we have no free will on earth that GOD must decree our fall, which is a blasphemy against HIS good name as loving and holy and which they struggle to defend without impugning GOD's holy character but with little success.

By rejecting that we had a time of free will pre-sin while we were ingenuously innocent pre-earth, to support the necessity of our free will, the Arminians have chosen to reject that we do not have a free will on earth so they make our free will decision to seek GOD to be the answer to HIS call to salvation, ignoring the verses that stipulate against this and the fact that it leads inevitable to universal salvation which every mention of hell mitigates against.

By rejecting that we had a time of free will pre-sin while we were ingenuously innocent pre-earth, each of the big 3, Calvinism, Arminianism and Catholicism, are forced to believe that the righteous and holy GOD creates evil people in sin by placing us in Adam rather than as independent from him and putting us under his sin without any choice on our part as if HE needed sinners in HIS creation for some reason.

If you start with the true belief (not just lip service) in GOD's holiness meaning HE will not ever create anything evil which necessitates that all evil was creature created by their free will, then the supports for our pre-conception existence in the bible take on a different implication and cannot be so readily passed over in favour of the created on earth bias.

Peace, Ted
 
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ttruscott said:
The necessity for our free will is to keep GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil and to make those who sin truly guilty before GOD.

The Bible indicates very often that we are enslaved to sin's addictive power and so our free will is non-existent on earth.

By rejecting that we had a time of free will pre-sin while we were ingenuously innocent pre-earth, Calvinists are force to accept that because we have no free will on earth that GOD must decree our fall, which is a blasphemy against HIS good name as loving and holy and which they struggle to defend without impugning GOD's holy character but with little success.

By rejecting that we had a time of free will pre-sin while we were ingenuously innocent pre-earth, to support the necessity of our free will, the Arminians have chosen to reject that we do not have a free will on earth so they make our free will decision to seek GOD to be the answer to HIS call to salvation, ignoring the verses that stipulate against this and the fact that it leads inevitable to universal salvation which every mention of hell mitigates against.

By rejecting that we had a time of free will pre-sin while we were ingenuously innocent pre-earth, each of the big 3, Calvinism, Arminianism and Catholicism, are forced to believe that the righteous and holy GOD creates evil people in sin by placing us in Adam rather than as independent from him and putting us under his sin without any choice on our part as if HE needed sinners in HIS creation for some reason.

If you start with the true belief (not just lip service) in GOD's holiness meaning HE will not ever create anything evil which necessitates that all evil was creature created by their free will, then the supports for our pre-conception existence in the bible take on a different implication and cannot be so readily passed over in favour of the created on earth bias.

Peace, Ted
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The scriptures say no such thing. You make them say that to support your bent.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

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genuineoriginal said:
Choice is freewill.
This tautology is so foundational to the discussion on freewill that no meaningful discussion can occur with anyone that refuses to believe it.
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If I threaten you to go right and you believe in my threat and so want to go right you may indeed choose to go right but that choice was not free, it was coerced.

If you had a genetic predisposition to going left and so more often than not you followed your 'inclination' to choose to go left then you may be making a choice but it is not free choice it was coerced.

Not every choice is by free will.

Peace, Ted
 
andyc

andyc

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ttruscott said:
If I threaten you to go right and you believe in my threat and so want to go right you may indeed choose to go right but that choice was not free, it was coerced.

If you had a genetic predisposition to going left and so more often than not you followed your 'inclination' to choose to go left then you may be making a choice but it is not free choice it was coerced.

Not every choice is by free will.

Peace, Ted
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It depends what the will is free from. Most people would suggest that Jesus had free will, and yet he obeyed his Father.
There's nothing wrong in saying that our will is free to choose in spite of outside influences.
 
Totton Linnet

Totton Linnet

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genuineoriginal said:
Choice is freewill.
This tautology is so foundational to the discussion on freewill that no meaningful discussion can occur with anyone that refuses to believe it.
Click to expand...

Choice is not freewill, the One who gives the choice has free sovereign will.

Christ in His teaching defines two sets of people, those who were His sheep and those who were children of the devil. They both sets heard His teaching but the bible distinctly says God closed their eyes that should see not and stopped their ears that they should hear not.

How is that the cross is a sweet savour of life to some but the foul stench of death to others?

To some the choice is just not given, all are drawn to the cross, but some unto judgement.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

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Totton Linnet said:
Christ in His teaching defines two sets of people, those who were His sheep and those who were children of the devil. They both sets heard His teaching but the bible distinctly says God closed their eyes that should see not and stopped their ears that they should hear not.

.
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Wrong.

Act 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
Act 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

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ttruscott said:
If I threaten you to go right and you believe in my threat and so want to go right you may indeed choose to go right but that choice was not free, it was coerced.

If you had a genetic predisposition to going left and so more often than not you followed your 'inclination' to choose to go left then you may be making a choice but it is not free choice it was coerced.

Not every choice is by free will.

Peace, Ted
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If you threaten me to go right and I believe in your threat, I still have the free will choice of refusing to comply.

Coercion does not negate free will.
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

Well-known member
When tempted to sin I resist. Because I love God and Neighbor. I have a choice/free will, but I prefer to do things God's way. Being a saved sinner I prefer God's way because it gives me peace. I prefer going to heaven than to hell. As an recovered alcoholic by the grace of God I was hanging on to the pits of hell by my fingertips. Not a nice to be. I choose God's way because it is the right way. I will be tempted because as God told Noah the "imaginations of people are evil." It is a daily battle. The closer I am to God the stronger I am to fight off temptation.
 
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genuineoriginal said:
Choice is freewill.


The One who gives free will has the power to override free will if He so chooses, but the scriptures show that He almost never chooses to override free will and only does it in extremely special cases.
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Strange, He never does. He lets us live with the consequences . . . with a hope.
 
OCTOBER23

OCTOBER23

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CR quoted ...

God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war,

and they return to Egypt:
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So NOT only were they Rebellious Complainers but Cowards too.
 
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OCTOBER23 said:
CR quoted ...

God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war,

and they return to Egypt:
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So NOT only were they Rebellious Complainers but Cowards too.
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Ah, yes, freewill does have consequences when inadvisedly acted upon.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

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genuineoriginal said:
If you threaten me to go right and I believe in your threat, I still have the free will choice of refusing to comply.

Coercion does not negate free will.
Click to expand...

If you looked into the abyss of the failure of your family if you were killed and the hell you might endure, would you be realistically said to be free to choose?

You may think you could reject a GOD who has proven HIS power and glory to your face and shown you the proof of hell in a vision but I doubt it...your acceptance of may be lip service against your will but your rebellion would not manifest itself.

As well, if I created you to not be able to turn right then are you free to turn anyway you want or does not the coercion to turn left only override your free will? Not all coercions are by threat...

Peace, Ted
 
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ttruscott said:
If you looked into the abyss of the failure of your family if you were killed and the hell you might endure, would you be realistically said to be free to choose?

You may think you could reject a GOD who has proven HIS power and glory to your face and shown you the proof of hell in a vision but I doubt it...your acceptance of may be lip service against your will but your rebellion would not manifest itself.

As well, if I created you to not be able to turn right then are you free to turn anyway you want or does not the coercion to turn left only override your free will? Not all coercions are by threat...

Peace, Ted
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Then you are speaking of a compelling __not coercion and that by my own God given sensibilities..
 
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