No Death Penalty. What Is Your Position?

[Stripe]

What crime did she commit? She was RAPED!!!!!!

Who are we talking about?

I was responding to the report that Iran executes adulterers.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Where did I say such?

You're confusing a countries laws with their abuse of the laws.

Abusing a righteous law so that one can do evil does not make the righteous law wicked.

They don't have "righteous" laws. They have ones that can condemn a thirteen year old girl to be bludgeoned to death with rocks.

 

[bibleverse2]

so if i come across a man raping a little girl and watch him proceed to kill her, i shouldn't intervene?

Do you mean with violence? If so, no (Matthew 5:39).

You could call the police the minute you see any crime, for the secular authorities have the God-given right to employ violence against criminals (Romans 13:4).

i should just forgive him and go on my merry way?

You must forgive everyone if you are to be forgiven by God for your own sins (Matthew 6:15).

But regarding going on your merry way, certainly not. For do not we Christians wrongly go on our merry way as we pass abortion clinics, where little girls and boys are being murdered every day?

What intervention would you propose for that?

 

[Truster]

Note that what has been presented is the hard truth of YHWH God's own Word the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4).

Satan knows and uses scripture.

 

[bibleverse2]

Someone who breaks the law, "do not murder," must pay for it with his life, because God said "life for life."

Note that was under the now-abolished (Ephesians 2:15) Old Covenant (Deuteronomy 19:21), not the New Covenant (Matthew 5:38-39).

Also, why did YHWH God forgive the repentant King David for murdering Uriah (2 Samuel 12:9,13), even while the Old Covenant was still in effect?

 

[Stripe]

What intervention would you propose for that?

The careful insertion of several pieces of hot metal at great velocity into the central mass, saving a couple of rounds for the head.

The first one, though, should be even more carefully aimed.

 

[bibleverse2]

Satan knows and uses scripture.

Note that no scripture has been used in a Satanic way (Romans 9:1).

 

[bibleverse2]

The careful insertion of several pieces of hot metal at great velocity into the central mass, saving a couple of rounds for the head.

Are you advocating gun violence against abortion clinics?

If so, do you practice what you preach?

If not, why not?

This is asked not to in any way encourage violence against abortion clinics, but to show that pacifism is the only consistent, Biblical response for Christians to all of the awful evil in the world, just as Jesus Christ taught us:

Matthew 5:39 . . . I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

[Truster]

Note that no scripture has been used in a Satanic way (Romans 9:1).

We* are told to test the spirits and I have serious doubts about you.

We* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners.

You must be "reformed" Calvinist.

 

[bibleverse2]

We* are told to test the spirits . . .

Amen (1 John 4:1)

. . . and I have serious doubts about you.

Note that there is no Biblical basis for your doubts.

We* the redeemed, regenerate and repentant sinners . . .

Amen, for unrepentant sinners won't be saved (Hebrews 10:26-29).

You must be "reformed" Calvinist.

No, not Calvinist, but Biblical, for what has been presented has been not from Calvin, but from the Bible.

 

[Truster]

Amen (1 John 4:1)



Note that there is no Biblical basis for your doubts.



Amen, for unrepentant sinners won't be saved (Hebrews 10:26-29).



No, not Calvinist, but Biblical, for what has been presented has been not from Calvin, but from the Bible.

You have the spirit of a reformer. Baptist confession or the like.

 

[ok doser]

You need to check yourself at the door bro. A 13 year old cannot even know what the word means....she's 13. And that is besides the point, her family reported a RAPE!!!! Then the head choppers decided to throw her under a pile of rocks. And you support that?

introducing this red herring of a story was artie's way of deflecting from the main argument and emotionalizing the discussion - it's a favorite tactic of his when he's losing an argument***

and it worked with you :sigh:




***well, that and peppering his responses with every possible logical fallacy he can come up with (see next post) :chuckle:

 

[ok doser]

It is entirely illogical to use countries that treat women that have little to zero rights as to what we have in the West, the case in Somalia underlines that.

you're ignoring the fact that in somalia, men are also executed for committing adultery

with no effect on marriage rates

A thirteen year old child that was raped was sentenced to death for adultery. Now, how many marriages do you suppose that women have a say in in countries that enforce laws whereby they have practically zero say in anything?

couldn't find anything about somalia, but in iran, woman are free to reject marriage, in fact many do

but not because of laws about adultery

Seriously, it has to be explained? If laws were implemented whereby the likes of the above could be enforced then both men and women would for the most part just shack up and not take the risk of a marriage falling apart. Why on earth would they?

argument from incredulity :sigh:

Why would either party want to risk marriage under your type of society?

men and women do

in iran and in somalia

and in both of those countries, men as well as women are executed for committing adultery

Why risk it? You can make a commitment to someone without a marriage certificate.

your question displays the vast gulf between a Christian like myself who has loved and married, built a home and family, raised children etc ....

and you, a non-Christian, who sees marriage as nothing particularly special, and to be avoided if it carries risk

Sure, do away with religious extremism of any bent and this world would be a lot better place for it.

Jesus was a religious extremist

would you do away with Him?

What you advocate would be condemned as extremism in both Christian circles as well as secular.

argumentum ad populum :sigh:

Stoning people to death in the present for adultery is barbaric, plain and simple.

argumentum ad passione :sigh:

 

[ok doser]

and so, to summarize:

In Iran, adultery is a capital crime.
Men and women are executed for adultery.
Women have the right to refuse to marry.
Men have the right to refuse to marry.
Marriage rates have not plummeted to nearly zero

In Somalia, adultery is a capital crime.
Men and women are executed for adultery.
Men have the right to refuse to marry.
Marriage rates have not plummeted to nearly zero


Can we agree that WoO's claim, to which I was originally responding:

If adultery was a capital crime, hardly anyone would get married, ever. Marriage rates would plummet to nearly zero.

has been disproven?

 

[ok doser]

.. Sin doesn't mean one sin of perverting the law ...

it would to first century legalists - they would have found the concept of original sin foreign

The woman was hardly guilty of attempting to pervert the law so your interpretation makes no sense.

I see where you misunderstood me - when I said "if we use mine (interpretation)" you thought I meant that we should consider that He was referring to the same specific sin.

I didn't.

What I meant was that in each case, i believe that He was referring to a single sin, a different single sin in each case.

In the case of the scribes and pharisees, i believe that He was referring to the single specific sin of perverting the single specific law regarding adultery - and I've laid out why this would be a particularly sensitive topic for these legalists who spent their lives immersed in the Law, their days debating the Law.

in the case of the woman (go and sin no more), I believe that He was referring to the single specific sin of adultery.


now, i noticed that you overlooked this question, so i'll ask it again:

how do you interpret "without sin"?

 

[ok doser]

In the case of the scribes and pharisees, i believe that He was referring to the single specific sin of perverting the single specific law regarding adultery - and I've laid out why this would be a particularly sensitive topic for these legalists who spent their lives immersed in the Law, their days debating the Law.

this interpretation also fits well, i believe, with the particular language of "convicted by their own conscience" - i've never been comfortable with the idea that they all had an epiphany, a sudden realization of the concept of original sin

no, it makes more sense to me when considered in the context of them (the scribes and pharisees, the legalists of their day) being reminded of their perversion of that which they loved above all, the Law

 

[Stripe]

Are you advocating gun violence against abortion clinics?

Sorry, I messed up the quote. I was suggesting that for the situation OK Doser presented.

 

[Stripe]

introducing this red herring of a story was artie's way of deflecting from the main argument and emotionalizing the discussion - it's a favorite tactic of his when he's losing an argument.

:shocked:

:banned:

:chuckle:

 

[Arthur Brain]

your question displays the vast gulf between a Christian like myself who has loved and married, built a home and family, raised children etc ....

and you, a non-Christian, who sees marriage as nothing particularly special, and to be avoided if it carries risk

Oh, there's a gulf between us alright and one that I wouldn't wish to see narrowed else I'd be living under a similar bridge. Time to leave you to it after this.

and so, to summarize:

In Iran, adultery is a capital crime.
Men and women are executed for adultery.
Women have the right to refuse to marry.
Men have the right to refuse to marry.
Marriage rates have not plummeted to nearly zero

In Somalia, adultery is a capital crime.
Men and women are executed for adultery.
Men have the right to refuse to marry.
Marriage rates have not plummeted to nearly zero


Can we agree that WoO's claim, to which I was originally responding: has been disproven?

Of course not. If laws were introduced making adultery a capital crime in the West then Wiz's point absolutely stands. Okay, there's no chance of it happening but the point remains and for obvious reasons.

 

[Bradley D]

So, in other words, they probably spent the time they were in timeout thinking about how they could avoid getting caught, no?

What makes you think that prisons, which are essentially timeout for adults, would be any different?



Punished? You mean they'd get more time to think about how best not to get caught next time?



"Hopefully"?

You mean, even you don't think they'd learn that what they did was wrong from being put into timeout? That's surprising.

Bradley, did you know that God told parents the best way to discipline their children?

Guess what, it wasn't by putting them in timeout.

Do you know what it is?



For the sake of their children and their children's children, I hope they don't try to punish their children by putting them in timeout.

They may have come to realize the wrongness of some actions. Others they decided not to do no more or they may do it again and try not to get caught. I would ask one grandchild if God liked what he did. He told me no.

I believe in life in prison without parole for murder. I still do not believe in the death penalty for reasons stated before. One person innocently put to death is one too many. Also Jesus tells me I am also a sinner and not worthy to judge others to death. I trust God to judge and give the punishment. Also believe God loves all sinners and wants give them time to believe and repent. "The last shall be first..." Mt 20:16.

There is a time when children have no clear understanding of good and bad. "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it" (Deut. 1:39). At first when punished they may not understand why. Therefore they may do the same thing again even when knowing they will be punished. But as they get older they will understand why.

As for punishment my Dad would get drunk and beat me severely with a belt. I have not the heart to do the same. My dear departed wife would give the physical punishment.