Nicer than God!
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
Which he would tell you himself!
You act as if he's being disengenuous or something.
He would also tell you that if this country did execute adulterers as they should then the circumstances that led to his families distruction would never have happened in the first place
WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT!
Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?
It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.
Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.
After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.
Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.
But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?
So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:
If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.
Can anyone back me up on this?
It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.
Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.
After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.
Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.
But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?
So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:
If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.
Can anyone back me up on this?
I'm not saying that you can't judge.
But if you judge on appearances, well, that is the measure that you will be judged on.
If you judge quickly, so will you be judged.
But if you carefully weigh things, you will be judged with careful weight of all things.
That's all I'm saying.
I probably can't judge you because I don't know you.
But I can judge what you have said.
And I did.
You offered only condemnation, "You make me sick! You don't deserve God!" but offer nothing more.
No mercy.
No hope.
Not even suggestion for change.
Simply a dead end.
I see a very angry, wrathful person who wishes others dead according to Lev. Law.
I see someone who is more a diciple of Enyart than Christ.
Enyart is very good at twisting the bible to make it into anything he wants, and then he gets converts, like you.
That is why I think he is so evil. He cuts people off from God.
Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[1]
First of all it was Turbo that mentioned the 8 year old not me. It's okay though, I agree with Turbo!
Secondly, it simply doesn't matter. No one is saying that being harsh is appropriate in every situation. It's perfectly legitimate to be nice if one feels that it will get you somewhere by doing so. What is being said is that one should not be nicer than God and that being harsh is a very effective means of getting people to open their eyes as well as an effective way of deterring sin in others and that this tactic was used frequently by several if not all of the prophets and by God Himself.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Agreed.
Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.
But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.
Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.
But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.
Chileice
New member
You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:
The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant
21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.
Zakath
Resident Atheist
I think it's interesting how seldom people with such attitudes are placed in positions where they have to put their actions where their mouths go.
If you discovered two of your employees engaging in homosexual activity in the supply closet, would you flog them or kill them because the Bible says so?
If you discovered two of your married employees engaging in heterosexual liaison (i.e. adultery) in the rest room, would you kill them because the Bible says so?
:think:
I have read the article.
Many times.
It's been on the site for years.
The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).
All of these are followers of Jesus, or teachers of the law.
Not sinners.
Can you describe what not showing mercy means to you?
Please describe it in detail.
Give examples how how one should treat the unrepentant.
One of your suggestions is to execute them, so that God can then send them to hell.
That's the harsh judgement I was talking about.
It seems that more than that, you would want the person to enter heaven by praying for a change of heart, not seal their fate.
So, I'm confused.
Can you explain how one should act?
Many times.
It's been on the site for years.
The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).
All of these are followers of Jesus, or teachers of the law.
Not sinners.
Can you describe what not showing mercy means to you?
Please describe it in detail.
Give examples how how one should treat the unrepentant.
One of your suggestions is to execute them, so that God can then send them to hell.
That's the harsh judgement I was talking about.
It seems that more than that, you would want the person to enter heaven by praying for a change of heart, not seal their fate.
So, I'm confused.
Can you explain how one should act?
If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?
We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.
That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit. That may seem like an outrageous claim but I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you. This is why God said it is a crime not simply a sin. The same is true of adultery for many of the same reasons.
I do not suggest that we take the law into our own hands and start lynching people. Criminal justice is the pervue of the governing authorities and if they do not live up to their responsibilities then we will be harmed and they will answer to God for that. But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so.
So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them. In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them. Either way, do not tolerate it. If you don't have the authority to fire them, then dislike them in such a way as they know that they are disliked. If need be quit and work somewhere else. The point being, do what you can to communicate that their behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence then allow the offense to work its ministry.
The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law. Baring that however, we must get them as close to that as we are able even if the closest we can come is to hurt their feelings and separate ourselves from them.
Resting in Him,
Clete
We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.
That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit. That may seem like an outrageous claim but I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you. This is why God said it is a crime not simply a sin. The same is true of adultery for many of the same reasons.
I do not suggest that we take the law into our own hands and start lynching people. Criminal justice is the pervue of the governing authorities and if they do not live up to their responsibilities then we will be harmed and they will answer to God for that. But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so.
So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them. In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them. Either way, do not tolerate it. If you don't have the authority to fire them, then dislike them in such a way as they know that they are disliked. If need be quit and work somewhere else. The point being, do what you can to communicate that their behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence then allow the offense to work its ministry.
The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law. Baring that however, we must get them as close to that as we are able even if the closest we can come is to hurt their feelings and separate ourselves from them.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Duder
Over 750 post club
Oh, yes. I see a future where government forces invade our homes and drag the children off to fag farms.
I learned about the secret Let's Destroy the Family meetings that are attended by every gay person from watching Jerry Falwell. How'd you hear about this ?
I think this is an admirable strategy. To be effective, we are going to have to expose the lies of our opponents, such as the one who said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - you know, that guy who broke bread with publicans and sinners and who rebuked those who were offended? This public enemy must be discredited, for we must, as you say, "communicate that their (sinners) behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence . . ."
Brilliant! Fire them for being fags, but hide the real reason and claim it was for another reason. Of course, that means we're going to have to discredit the one who said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness . . ."
What insight! How I have longed for a return to the days of forced confession, and the sweet incense of scorched flesh as the repentant fag is sent by us to his eternal reward in heaven
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"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"
I've read the article.
I've pointed to places in the bible where it explains that it is the antithesis of what Jesus says.
Do you put Enyart above the Bible?
Remember, Satan quoted the bible when tempting Jesus.
You can twist it for any purpose.
Including justifying hatred for other people.
10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Not exactly tough love, huh?
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Not exactly tough love, huh?
Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.
Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.