New film tackles evidence for evolution

[The Barbarian]

Originally Posted by 6days

Exactly! Evolution can explain greed and altruism.

It can explain how these would be of survival value under different circumstances. And why we see greed in some animal populations and altruism in others. There's a good deal of math involved in this but we can talk about it, if you like.

Yup... like a fog that covers any landscape.

Nope. You've been misled badly on that. Chanting slogans won't give you any insight into anything. Would you like to learn how we know which way it works, depending on the environment?

Originally Posted by 6days

Evolution can explain specified complexity in our genome

Barbarian chuckles:
"Specified complexity", in the creationist usage, is a religious term, and thus not accessible by science.

Specified complexity.... evolutionists call it "appearance of design..but not designed"

A creationist fairy tale, then. There is actually something real called "specified complexity", but creationists don't use it that way. Would you like to learn about that?

Originally Posted by 6days

as well as it explains junk.

Barbarian muses:
Perhaps you mean "junk DNA", which scientists normally call "non-coding DNA."

Yes, they also called it flotsam and other things.

Don't see that in the literature. Of course, some of it, like the broken vitamin C gene, is simply damaged DNA that has yet to be removed or modified to another use. But you should know that at least by the 1960s, scientists were discovering functions of some non-coding DNA. You've been completely misled about when they knew it.

It was used as evidence of evolutiinism. They didnt understand the design and purpose. Now that we are beginning to understand the function of non coding DNA,

You're about 46 years late. See? It isn't about science...its about creationists trying to explain away the evidence. Would you like me to show you some early papers on the functions of non-coding DNA?

Originally Posted by 6days

In other words Evolutionism is so plastic that it isn't about science

Barbarian realizes what "evolutionism" means to creationists:
Ah, you've confused "evolutionism" (the word creationists use for "the boogyman") with evolutionary theory. No wonder you hate it.

The word is a good way to differentiate between what is observable science and *psuedoscience beliefs.

So you're saying creationism is evolutionism? :chuckle:

Evolutionism is the belief system that something like a fish can evolve into something like a fisherman.

Oh, you mean the misconceptions creationist have about evolutionary theory. If a fish evolved into a man, evolutionary theory would be in big trouble. Fish evolved into tetrapods. Men evolved from other primates.

And of course, individuals don't evolve. Populations evolve. Wouldn't it be easier if you just learned about the theory and the evidence for it?

I'm a very patient guy, and I don't mind explaining, but this has to be a clumsy way for you to learn science.

 

[Stripe]

In science, it's not bad to be wrong.

:AMR: Was that a retraction?

No. You gave me three links of individuals that do attempt explain morality naturalistically. Whether they actually use evolution or not is an open question as is how widely accepted any of their work is.

:darwinsm:

And no I should not have implied "nobody" tries to apply evolutionary theory to morality. However, I have said previously that some people DO try to apply evolution to morality, but that it's a bad idea (also what rationalwiki says) and I don't agree with it.

Rationalwiki says there is an evolutionary basis for morality.

Here's the real problem: Your argument is not so much "evolution" can't explain morality is that you are saying "there is no explanation for morality apart from God". You don't seem to understand that evolution does not equal all naturalistic explanations. An actual "naturalistic explanation" of morality would include things like culture as well as biology. But the problem with morality is it really can't be tested scientifically very well. It doesn't fossilize so it doesn't leave behind evidence, and it's often at least slightly different between individuals and extremely hard to measure. It's something that science is not really able to deal with.

I don't have any such problem. I have been very careful to not overstate my case and to limit the challenge.

The only "problem" is evolutionists, who want everything to be evolution until it is used as a challenge, at which time they want it not to be evolution.

The funny thing is I bet you believe there is a naturalistic explanation for any other culture's morality other than the Judeo-Christian one. Yes? Or perhaps you say other cultures are "amoral"?

Nope. Morality is a nonphysical part of reality for all people throughout all time. Even if there were no people, it would still exist.

You really do need to quit with the knee-jerk responses. Nothing I have said should challenge your theistic evolutionism -- unless you're more committed to protecting the evolutionism than the theology.

Their argument is rather different from Stripe's "If evolution is true there's no rational basis for morality". This is the "evolution will destroy the world" argument

:AMR:

Evolution's Achilles' Heels

The trailer said exactly what I could have said: "If evolution is true, many ... evolutionists acknowledge, there is no rational basis for morality."

It looks like you are desperate to set up your straw man to have something to disagree with other than what has been clearly presented.

 

[Stripe]

:mock: K$

 

[kmoney]

:noid:

 

[resurrected]

Evolution is the development of life.

not according to God

 

[Stripe]

:noid:

:banana:

 

[musterion]

Evolution is the development of life.

Evolution is elimination by death. Evolution is the engine, death is the fuel. Life is just the happenstance byproduct, the meaningless exhaust.

 

[6days]

Kiss a frog...

Kiss a frog...

Specified complexity.... evolutionists call it "appearance of design..but not designed"

A creationist fairy tale, then.

It is not Biblical creationists who think a frog can become a prince. :ha:

 

[Stripe]

 

[glorydaz]

It is not Biblical creationists who think a frog can become a prince. :ha:

:rotfl:

 

[musterion]

THE TALE OF THE MAGIC ROCK APES
​

Okay, sit down now, boys and girls, it's story time! Shhhh....

Once upon a time, billlllllions of years ago, there was Nothing.

Suddenly, magically, Something -- we don't know what -- made the Nothing explode into Everything!

Eventually, the magical Everything cooled down enough to magically condense into precisely ordered galaxies, stars and planets. Innit that lovely, boys and girls?

On one tiny planet, the surface was covered in hot rock that eventually cooled. It was magical rock. Inert and lifeless, but still magical.

Then, magically, water formed in the sky above the magical rock. The magical water rained on the magical rock for -- oh, I dunno, let's say somewhere between ten and twenty billion years.

Anyway, some of the magical rock broke down into minerals - can you say minerals? - and these magical minerals washed into a warm pool of magical water.

Then one day, milllllllllllions of years later, some of these magical inorganic minerals magically formed into a kind of magical organic goo in the warm pool of magical water.

Can you say goo? I knew you could!

And do you know what happened then?

That's right!

The magical goo was touched by magical lightning or magical radiation or magical aliens - I'm not really sure which, but it happened - and the goo magically became ALIVE!

Then this bit of magical goo magically found something to eat. Then, magically, it found another bit of magical girl goo to marry...one that magically formed just like it did, I guess, no one's really sure...and they settled down and had a whole bunch of magical little goos.

Eventually, some of this magical goo grew up into all the plants and animals in the world around us. Just think of that, boys and girls: If it's alive today, it all came from that first bit of magical goo!

Well, more time went on. Finally some of this magical goo magically evolved -- can you say evolved? Good, because it's on the test -- some of this magical goo magically evolved upwards and upwards, growing ever more advanced, bigger, stronger, smarter, until it became a kind of magical hairless ape with environmental awareness and thumbs.

And do you know who those apes are?

That's right!

They're YOU and ME, boys and girls! WE are the magical rock apes!

And you know what else, boys and girls?

Someday we'll magically evolve high enough and far enough and smart enough that we'll become that silly old Bible God that Science has proved doesn't need to exist!

Now take a nap.

 

[Stripe]

:darwinsm:

:mock: Evolutionists.

 

[kmoney]

Nope. Morality is necessarily an objective reality, otherwise it is just opinion. You asserting otherwise is not a counter to what we say. If you want to be convincing, you are forced to give reasons -- not just assert and expect everyone to tag along.

Why do you define morality as necessarily objective? Why can't a sense of right and wrong be opinion or something conditioned through evolution like some would say it is?

Meanwhile, you are dancing ever-farther away from the point: Evolution must not be the sole determination of the diversification of life.

Only if you define morality as something from outside, but I'm not seeing why that needs to be the case.

 

[Stripe]

Why do you define morality as necessarily objective? Why can't a sense of right and wrong be opinion or something conditioned through evolution like some would say it is?

Because then it is just opinion.

Things must be right or wrong because of a standard, or else what you call morality is just an illusion.

Only if you define morality as something from outside, but I'm not seeing why that needs to be the case.

That's because evolutionists are accustomed to allowing words to mean anything. Fundamentalists stick to what is true and necessary. If you are going to define morality as something based on popular practice, you've just eliminated all need for the word.

 

[The Barbarian]

That's because evolutionists are accustomed to allowing words to mean anything.

This from a guy who we have to repeatedly show that evolution is not about the origin of life, or the big bang, or any of a thousand other things that worry him.

 

[The Barbarian]

Musterion interprets science:

Okay, sit down now, boys and girls, it's story time! Shhhh....

Once upon a time, billlllllions of years ago, there was Nothing.

Suddenly, magically, Something -- we don't know what -- made the Nothing explode into Everything!

Eventually, the magical Everything cooled down enough to magically condense into precisely ordered galaxies, stars and planets. Innit that lovely, boys and girls?

On one tiny planet, the surface was covered in hot rock that eventually cooled. It was magical rock. Inert and lifeless, but still magical.

Then, magically, water formed in the sky above the magical rock. The magical water rained on the magical rock for -- oh, I dunno, let's say somewhere between ten and twenty billion years.

Anyway, some of the magical rock broke down into minerals - can you say minerals? - and these magical minerals washed into a warm pool of magical water.

Then one day, milllllllllllions of years later, some of these magical inorganic minerals magically formed into a kind of magical organic goo in the warm pool of magical water.

Can you say goo? I knew you could!

And do you know what happened then?

That's right!

The magical goo was touched by magical lightning or magical radiation or magical aliens - I'm not really sure which, but it happened - and the goo magically became ALIVE!

Creationists never figure out that what scientists think is hilariously funny about that story, is that creationists actually believe that's what scientists think.

 

[resurrected]

actually, that's about right :idunno:

 

[Skybringr]

Creationists are apparently so simple minded that they can't fathom that a mixture of substances sitting in a warm, still pool for millions upon millions of years will eventually form mechanical systems on the microscopic level which will gradually become more complex.

It's good science, there's nothing far fetched about it. Creationists main artillery is basically to make it comical and ridicule it.
But rarely do they ever actually consider the rational potential of it.

 

[Stripe]

Creationists are apparently so simple minded that they can't fathom that a mixture of substances sitting in a warm, still pool.

What are you talking about? I thought that was what the inside of your head was like. :idunno:

 

[noguru]

actually, that's about right :idunno:

Yes, you are as deluded as the others. Science has within it answers to why that is imprecise, inaccurate and an absurd representation of what science really concludes. But stubborn arrogant jerks like you will never realize when and where you are wrong. So you continue to repeat deceit and maintain your willful ignorance. This exactly why reasonable people find your antics both sad and comical.