SaulToPaul 2
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Hong Kong Hooey!
ECT Never the Twain
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Hong Kong Hooey!
heir
TOL Subscriber
Oh, they're professionals, alright!
2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
You'd rather call God and Paul a liar than acknowledge the manifold wisdom of God revealed in Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV concerning Gentiles such as we (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV) which concerns the very salvation of us all!
heir
TOL Subscriber
It's "by the gospel" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 3:6 KJV) that we are made partakers of Christ having never anything to do with Israel (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). It is the dispensation of the grace of God given to Paul (Ephesians 3:1-2 KJV). It is mystery truth never revealed in the "OT" (Ephesians 3:3-5 KJV). It was unsearchable (Ephesians 3:8). IOW, it can't be traced out back there! It was mystery, which from the beginning of the world was hid in God (Ephesians 3:9 KJV). There's no need to fight it, just believe it!
Interplanner
Well-known member
Heir,
before you make any more snide remarks about Greek grammar scholars, every English line you now read is due to Greek grammar scholars, even if KJV, who worked the subject at Oxford and Christ's college, Cambridge. So knock it off. It is a skill like playing violin, and must be passed down.
I'm referring to Goodrick, Kohlenberger, Soderlund, Nolland, Walkte, Bockmuhl. They were on things like the Greek faculty at Multnomah U, or committees that did NIV or the New Int'l Dict of Theology or at Dallas but left for elsewhere, or could work in Greek like Bockmuhl since middle school. When you can show you are in that camp of people, let me know where you trained.
The point is: the Gentiles coming to faith is not the mystery. As amos 9 says in Acts 15, it was known to the Lord for long ages. That's why the mission to the Gentiles is in the promises to Abraham and before, in Gen 1-11.
The mystery is HOW the promises were passed on; it was in Christ, in his resurrection. That is what the passage is saying.
So We do not disagree when you said:
It's "by the gospel" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 3:6 KJV) that we are made partakers of Christ having never anything to do with Israel (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). So long as you mean that EVERYONE who receives those things also receives them through the Gospel. Because there are no more Judaistic 'things' to get and collect. We all receive the same thing, through the same Gospel, and work in the same mission for Christ. That is everywhere in the NT and D'ist thinking is abjectly skew of all this. There are not going to be trucks full of Gentile believers being hauled to Judea because they have to be THERE to be blessed.
That is what is not seen in the OT--that it would convey through Christ. So when Judaism was rebuilding itself after the captivity, it thought it had to get gentiles into the law to benefit at all. And to get them to Jerusalem 3 times a year. Jesus called their kind of mission work, making someone twice as much a son of hell as they (the Pharisees) were, Mt 23. Ie, I don't think he liked it.
The gentiles coming to faith can be traced back there, the WAY or CHANNEL cannot because they were veiled and that is only removed in Christ.
Ie, you are not being as careful as the text about what it is saying.
It was NEVER hidden that there would be a way for the nations to believe. it is in the proto-evangelium of Genesis 3:16. Jesus said Abraham saw Christ's day. It is in most promises to Israel as such. it is all over Isaiah. I quoted Amos 9 (Acts 15) above. That's why Gal 3 says what it does about those lines. All the D'ist guys here are miserable on Amos 9.
There is nothing to fight; I know the material too well to 'fight.' But I won't believe what it does NOT say.
Finally, it includes the Gentiles this way to be an example to the principalities and powers that God can unify people in Christ through his power, Eph 3:10. So don't be splitting the Christian fellowship like these compartmentalist D'ists do, with their 3 groups or 3 heavens or 3 programs.
before you make any more snide remarks about Greek grammar scholars, every English line you now read is due to Greek grammar scholars, even if KJV, who worked the subject at Oxford and Christ's college, Cambridge. So knock it off. It is a skill like playing violin, and must be passed down.
I'm referring to Goodrick, Kohlenberger, Soderlund, Nolland, Walkte, Bockmuhl. They were on things like the Greek faculty at Multnomah U, or committees that did NIV or the New Int'l Dict of Theology or at Dallas but left for elsewhere, or could work in Greek like Bockmuhl since middle school. When you can show you are in that camp of people, let me know where you trained.
The point is: the Gentiles coming to faith is not the mystery. As amos 9 says in Acts 15, it was known to the Lord for long ages. That's why the mission to the Gentiles is in the promises to Abraham and before, in Gen 1-11.
The mystery is HOW the promises were passed on; it was in Christ, in his resurrection. That is what the passage is saying.
So We do not disagree when you said:
It's "by the gospel" (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 3:6 KJV) that we are made partakers of Christ having never anything to do with Israel (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). So long as you mean that EVERYONE who receives those things also receives them through the Gospel. Because there are no more Judaistic 'things' to get and collect. We all receive the same thing, through the same Gospel, and work in the same mission for Christ. That is everywhere in the NT and D'ist thinking is abjectly skew of all this. There are not going to be trucks full of Gentile believers being hauled to Judea because they have to be THERE to be blessed.
That is what is not seen in the OT--that it would convey through Christ. So when Judaism was rebuilding itself after the captivity, it thought it had to get gentiles into the law to benefit at all. And to get them to Jerusalem 3 times a year. Jesus called their kind of mission work, making someone twice as much a son of hell as they (the Pharisees) were, Mt 23. Ie, I don't think he liked it.
The gentiles coming to faith can be traced back there, the WAY or CHANNEL cannot because they were veiled and that is only removed in Christ.
Ie, you are not being as careful as the text about what it is saying.
It was NEVER hidden that there would be a way for the nations to believe. it is in the proto-evangelium of Genesis 3:16. Jesus said Abraham saw Christ's day. It is in most promises to Israel as such. it is all over Isaiah. I quoted Amos 9 (Acts 15) above. That's why Gal 3 says what it does about those lines. All the D'ist guys here are miserable on Amos 9.
There is nothing to fight; I know the material too well to 'fight.' But I won't believe what it does NOT say.
Finally, it includes the Gentiles this way to be an example to the principalities and powers that God can unify people in Christ through his power, Eph 3:10. So don't be splitting the Christian fellowship like these compartmentalist D'ists do, with their 3 groups or 3 heavens or 3 programs.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:rotfl:
Interplanner
Well-known member
Heir,
if you do respond, please go back far enough to previous debates on Amos 9. For one thing, the LXX does not read like the Hebrew yet the apostles quoted the LXX and went with it on 'mankind seeking' (the Hebrew reads as though Israel would overpower the rest of mankind).
if you do respond, please go back far enough to previous debates on Amos 9. For one thing, the LXX does not read like the Hebrew yet the apostles quoted the LXX and went with it on 'mankind seeking' (the Hebrew reads as though Israel would overpower the rest of mankind).
Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Not that I wholly disagree with all of the remainder of your post, but your above is especially a very valid point.
And of the 47 language scholars whose work resulted in the KJV, most had held Reformed views (several were Roman Catholic).
The ANGLICAN Church of England the KJV was produced for was anything but "Dispensational."
Your witness on this much, IP, is 100% true.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
Not that I wholly disagree with all of the remainder of your post, but your above is especially a very valid point.
And of the 47 language scholars whose work resulted in the KJV, most had held Reformed views (several were Roman Catholic).
The ANGLICAN Church of England the KJV was produced for was anything but "Dispensational."
Your witness on this much, IP, is 100% true.
Rom. 5:8
Acts 17:11,12
Interplanner
Well-known member
It is not a matter of changing from the original, Rom 16. it is a matter of undoing what Judaism had replaced. Or in modern times, what the stepchild of Judaism (D'ism) has replaced. That's why there is one program.
But God raised up Paul to correct it, to recalibrate it, to the Seed who is Christ.
But God raised up Paul to correct it, to recalibrate it, to the Seed who is Christ.
It is interesting that you and they both start off on a mis-fire on the sense of Romans 16:25, 26, only to end up at opposition to one another in each your mis-fire on the sense of Ephesians 3:5, 6.
Isaiah 8:20
Acts 17:11,12
2 Tim. 3:16,17
Nevertheless, Rom. 5:8
heir
TOL Subscriber
Rubbish! 2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV
Rubbish! Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV says otherwise and you can't get around it by explaining it away! It means exactlky what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it, which just so happens to be to us who were in time past without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)! "But now"(Ephesians 2:13 KJV) not back then!
heir
TOL Subscriber
not to be confused with Hong Kong Phooey
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
Heir,
when is the last time you talked, wrote, spoke in Koine? What you are saying is mindless. The originals had to be handed down, and translated. There is a science of translation, of getting as close as possible to the original meaning. It takes lexicons; lexicons are written collections of the best examples of unique meanings of words, as early as research can find them used, so that we know what the meant originally. It has nothing to do with the 2 Tim 3 doctrine.
And just slow down about the "now" of Eph 2. It was written in about 60 AD. It meant now, a little more broadly, as "in Christ."
You need to read more carefully than 'exactly what it says' because that is how D'ism bludgeons things. The expression 'in the Gospel' (not in the Law, nor in Judaism) is how Gentile believers share promises, citizenship etc with believers in Israel. That is what it says, but I don't think you are seeing it. If it is, we do not have a disagreement.
When I say the Gentiles coming to faith was not the mystery, that's because of Gen 3, Gen 12, 15, Is 11, tons of places in Isaiah, Amos 9 etc. It was known the whole time. But the METHOD or CHANNEL was not known. That is what gets unlocked in Christ.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Careful . . You are confronting the Clubs' Sophia.
Nope - those 47 men used none of those tools - for the KJV just appeared out of nowhere, in 1611 EARLY Modern English, no less.
A language that a hundred years earlier barely existed, let alone, 1,500 years earlier.
In fact, heir and STP found the KJV - under a rock they were about to hurl at some guy claiming he too had found a book - about Mormons, or some such :chuckle:
Rom. 5:8
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
D'ism invented the 2nd program when it failed to realize that Paul was speaking retroactively in Rom 4 and Gal 3-4 about the Seed of Abraham. The Gospel was preached in advance. The Judaism that Paul grew up in had switched that promise for the Law, the original RT. The prophesied work of the Spirit comes through the Gospel, not the Law.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Made up.
Right Divider
Body part
He does tell good fairy tales though.
Perhaps he should become a "real writer" of fairy tales.
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