ECT Nang's Boastful Lie
- Thread starter Doom
- Start date
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I would suppose this term was used to describe his association with the Apostles; described as a "bishopric," until he betrayed Christ and ended his own life.
It certainly is not an individual title or anointed position of Elder or Bishop given to him, as it now pertains to Christian churches, for Judas never was an overseer, protector, or teacher of believers, was he?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
My point in all of this is that the details in scripture are sparse enough that it's impossible to form any kind of hierarchy within a local assembly and claim it is 100% scriptural.
I think there is a reason for that.
I think there is a reason for that.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Not sure how you get from A to B on that one.
There is one thing about leadership in a local church and that not having any is unscriptural. Titus 1:5 makes that pretty clear.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Yes, it's obvious there was some kind of structure in Paul's churches, but I don't think there's enough information in his letters to fully emulate whatever that structure was.
There is some guesswork that has to be done.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
I thought Paul was a Lutheran?
Doom
New member
Missouri Synod
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Every visible assembly of believers, since the resurrection of Christ, has formed leadership and authority within their members, due to the teachings of Holy Scripture.
This developed into two major camps: The Presbyters and the Congregationalists.
The former, designating and anointing Elders, who subsequently choose other Elders; all answerable to their system of Presbyter Sessions.
The latter chose to designate Elders according to local and independent congregational votes and majority; answerable only amongst themselves.
Either way, Protestant churches, if they are scriptural, name Elders for their own oversight and authoritative rule as taught by Paul.
To suggest the bible does not say enough about these matters, is simply an unrealistic denial of church history and very unwise, for:
No Eldership or no formal authority in an assembly of worshipers, will denigrate into lawlessness.
Unscriptural abuse and too much (human) authority given to Eldership in an assembly, can lead to magisterial politics (e.g. the Papistry).
This developed into two major camps: The Presbyters and the Congregationalists.
The former, designating and anointing Elders, who subsequently choose other Elders; all answerable to their system of Presbyter Sessions.
The latter chose to designate Elders according to local and independent congregational votes and majority; answerable only amongst themselves.
Either way, Protestant churches, if they are scriptural, name Elders for their own oversight and authoritative rule as taught by Paul.
To suggest the bible does not say enough about these matters, is simply an unrealistic denial of church history and very unwise, for:
No Eldership or no formal authority in an assembly of worshipers, will denigrate into lawlessness.
Unscriptural abuse and too much (human) authority given to Eldership in an assembly, can lead to magisterial politics (e.g. the Papistry).
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Do your deacons serve tables?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Deacons do all kinds of practical works.
Some of them even keep the bathrooms clean.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
They should.
With able bodied men, it is a shame to hire a cleaning crew or landscapers with the church's offerings.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Yes, that would be my surmisal, too. Seems the 12, as a group, were referred to as a "bishopric."
But that does not give Judas Iscariot the title or position of a church Elder, according to the scriptural requirements and purposes for that office.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yes, and there is a very good reason for that. Man is never immune to pride. Elders are to serve and esteem others more highly than themselves. Mature godly men are recognized by the members of the body...not set up to rule over but to serve and to lead by example. Any system of hierarchy within a local assembly is WRONG.
rainee
New member
Nang, I didn't know you were Reformed Baptist! I have an old friend I haven't seen in a long while who is a Pastor at a small congregation in a little town not far from here! Have you always been? He grew into it, I believe. We had a Bible Church that had become 5 points split years ago and some became Presbies and some RB.
Right Divider
Body part
Hahahaha, from someone that always complains that MAD puts too much on the physical when it's all spiritual, no tells us that we need to understand the visible church. Hahahaha
Judas was one of the TWELVE, as was Peter. You don't think that ALL of the TWELVE had authority in this group chosen by Jesus?
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Ouranos is heaven, so ironically this is a rhetorical question, since she's seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus while speaking.
Yes, she's speaking from ouranos.
rainee
New member
Glad you are a happy soul, Right Divider.
But before The Lord sends them out (after His suffering, death, burial and resurrection but before His ascension) weren't Twelve Disciples like His children and He was the only Authority?
Didn't John the Baptist say something abut not being like them??
Now I have to go check myself!
I don't stay out of the Gospels myself - but it's a lot to remember!