My fantasy. And a question for liberals

Caledvwlch

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I really hate that this discussion about Barton is putting me on the same side as Granite and Town Heretic.

Admittedly, it is against aCW, which makes me feel slightly better. But still. I really don't feel right on the "left", even if only for one small moment :p

I guess that means aCDubs is right about libertarians being liberals. :chuckle:

But seriously, Barton is a grifter.
 

aCultureWarrior

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I really hate that this discussion about Barton is putting me on the same side as Granite and Town Heretic.

Perhaps it was "put on you" because you took the same side as TH and the Christian turned Satanist turned atheist turned "Other" (Granite) when it came to bashing David Barton.

Admittedly, it is against aCW, which makes me feel slightly better. But still. I really don't feel right on the "left", even if only for one small moment :p

I have an idea Jr. : Why don't you share this 55 minute video of David Barton speaking at a church a couple of years ago with the two "professors" at your community college who think that David Barton is a "nutjob" and share their rebuttal with us?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4466120&postcount=325

Be sure to watch the entire video, even past the 9 minute mark where Barton talks about the book that the Declaration of Independence was copied from ("The Two Treatises of Government") and how that book made reference to Holy Scripture...what was it...1,500 times?
 

Christian Liberty

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I guess that means aCDubs is right about libertarians being liberals. :chuckle:

I'm not even really a libertarian though. Not anymore. Admittedly, there are a few people who still call me one. But if I am one, I'm probably the most conservative kind of libertarian that exists. How many libertarians support blasphemy laws, blue laws, sodomy laws, etc?

I do support something far closer to "libertarianism" than most of the right though. And in aCW's mind, anyone who isn't a fascist is a libertarian and anyone who is a libertarian is a liberal.

Ah, whatever. And perhaps you'd disput the assertion that I'm not a fascist. Whatever ;)

But seriously, Barton is a grifter.

I was disappointed in Kirk Cameron for quoting him in Monumental. I hope it was an accident. I don't know much about Barton but I know enough never to trust him ever.
 

Christian Liberty

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Perhaps it was "put on you" because you took the same side as TH and the Christian turned Satanist turned atheist turned "Other" (Granite) when it came to bashing David Barton.



I have an idea Jr. : Why don't you share this 55 minute video of David Barton speaking at a church a couple of years ago with the two "professors" at your community college who think that David Barton is a "nutjob" and share their rebuttal with us?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4466120&postcount=325

Be sure to watch the entire video, even past the 9 minute mark where Barton talks about the book that the Declaration of Independence was copied from ("The Two Treatises of Government") and how that book made reference to Holy Scripture...what was it...1,500 times?

Not going to waste a professor at PHC's time with someone as dumb as you. I don't know why I waste my time, but at least I'm the rightful owner of my own time and thus am not robbing anyone from doing so. I wouldn't feel right stealing the time of a good Christian man like either of my professors.
 

Christian Liberty

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Perhaps it was "put on you" because you took the same side as TH and the Christian turned Satanist turned atheist turned "Other" (Granite) when it came to bashing David Barton.



I have an idea Jr. : Why don't you share this 55 minute video of David Barton speaking at a church a couple of years ago with the two "professors" at your community college who think that David Barton is a "nutjob" and share their rebuttal with us?

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4466120&postcount=325

Be sure to watch the entire video, even past the 9 minute mark where Barton talks about the book that the Declaration of Independence was copied from ("The Two Treatises of Government") and how that book made reference to Holy Scripture...what was it...1,500 times?

Again, I don't need to watch the video. You need to understand the era and how it differed from our own era. Back then it was extremely popular to agree with the Bible on ethics while lacking a belief in miracles or the gospel. Now its the opposite, you have people who say they're Christian but don't believe the Bible on ethics. But back then you had deists who didn't believe in the Triune God or miracles but believed the Bible was correct on ethical issues and was worth reading for that reason. Like Jefferson.
 

Town Heretic

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I really hate that this discussion about Barton is putting me on the same side as Granite and Town Heretic.
Well, rationality can be disconcerting for the relatively uninitiated. :eek:

Admittedly, it is against aCW, which makes me feel slightly better. But still. I really don't feel right on the "left", even if only for one small moment :p
Don't worry about it, just keep reciting, "Taxes are theft," and "As government expands, liberty contracts". You'll be right as rain in no time. :)


That looks like an opportunity to fall down a Wikipedia hole if I ever saw one. :chuckle:
Sometimes, when people use Wiki repeatedly, I feel like saying, "Close your Wikipedia hole."

But I never do. :nono:


Whackadoodle country.
Like Rascal Flats then.

You know the people who think the U.S. is still "technically" a bunch of British colonies or an incorporation under the control of the East India Company? Same type of thing.
Is there space travel in that world? Or do they even need it. :think:
 

aCultureWarrior

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Not going to waste a professor at PHC's time with someone as dumb as you...

Newsflash Jr. : I didn't make the video, the supposed "nutjob" David Barton did.

Again, I don't need to watch the video. You need to understand the era and how it differed from our own era. Back then it was extremely popular to agree with the Bible on ethics while lacking a belief in miracles or the gospel.

Ahso my favorite pagan son. So now you're claiming that the Founding Fathers, a good many of them who were ordained Christian ministers, didn't believe in miracles or the gospel of Jesus Christ?

You're a real hoot Jr.
 

Lexington'96

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Ahso my favorite pagan son. So now you're claiming that the Founding Fathers, a good many of them who were ordained Christian ministers, didn't believe in miracles or the gospel of Jesus Christ?

You're a real hoot Jr.

Have you read anything about US history outside of the classes you took in school? Jefferson, Franklin, and probably a few others were not Christians.
 

quip

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This unrealistic fantasy will never happen:

The US is already divided in half by the Mississippi river. Let's have all the lefties live to the west of the river and all the conservatives east of the river.

On the east side, abortion would be a capital crime. There would be no expensive prison system needed because crime would be punished by financial restitution, flogging, or capital punishment. Everyone above the age of 20 would be required to own a handgun. Islam (a religion that advocates murder) would be illegal. There would be no mandatory health insurance, no social security, no Medicare, no Medicaid, no "free" government indocrina...err...education, no welfare checks, no food stamps, etc. Also, everyone will pay the same percentage of income tax no matter how much they make and those taxes will be below 10%.

The left ...err west coast wouldn't have to even think about building a wall on the Mexican border anymore. They could make any laws they want with absolutely no obstruction from conservatives because there wouldn't be any conservatives. They could have themselves so much fun taxing the hell out of each other!

Question for liberals: Wouldn't that be wonderful?

What exactly would be wonderful...a redefinition of the westwardly mobile wetback? Perhaps. :rain:

"Go west young......."
 

aCultureWarrior

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Have you read anything about US history outside of the classes you took in school? Jefferson, Franklin, and probably a few others were not Christians.

No, I rely solely on you Libertarians for my knowledge of the Founding Fathers.

Sarcasm aside:

What would you call someone who appeals for prayer at the Constitutional Convention, an atheist?

Franklin’s Appeal for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention
http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=98
 

Town Heretic

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No, I rely solely on you Libertarians for my knowledge of the Founding Fathers.

Sarcasm aside:

What would you call someone who appeals for prayer at the Constitutional Convention, an atheist?
A politician. But who knows what Franklin believed by the end of it. There's a lot of discussion about it. He was unquestionably a deist for some time, but there's reason to suspect that changed toward the end of his life. Then there's this:

"You desire to know something of my religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it. But I cannot take your curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few words to gratify it. Here is my creed. I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His providence. That He ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we render Him is doing good to His other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental principles of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in His government of the world with any particular marks of His displeasure.

"I shall only add, respecting myself, that, having experienced the goodness of that Being in conducting me prosperously through a long life, I have no doubt of its continuance in the next, without the smallest conceit of meriting it... I confide that you will not expose me to criticism and censure by publishing any part of this communication to you. I have ever let others enjoy their religious sentiments, without reflecting on them for those that appeared to me unsupportable and even absurd. All sects here, and we have a great variety, have experienced my good will in assisting them with subscriptions for building their new places of worship; and, as I never opposed any of their doctrines, I hope to go out of the world in peace with them all."


[Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale, shortly before his death; from "Benjamin Franklin" by Carl Van Doren, the October, 1938 Viking Press edition pages 777-778 Also see Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94]
 

Town Heretic

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Remind me what political office Benjamin Franklin ever held or for that matter, ran for?
He was elected to the Pennsylvania Assembly in 1751. One assumes he ran since it didn't say he was appointed. He was elected to the Continental Congress in 1775. He was thereafter Postmaster General, a treaty agent and Minister to the French Court.

Though you don't actually have to be any of those to sound like a politician. :plain:
 

aCultureWarrior

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He was elected to the Pennsylvania Assembly in 1751. One assumes he ran since it didn't say he was appointed. He was elected to the Continental Congress in 1775. He was thereafter Postmaster General, a treaty agent and Minister to the French Court.

Though you don't actually have to be any of those to sound like a politician. :plain:

I stand corrected. So in your mind Benjamin Franklin pretended* to believe in God just to get elected and have prosperous career in the new government?

* i.e. Ben Franklin was the colonial day version of Barack Hussein Obama, except that Franklin wasn't a baby murderer, a defender or sodomy or a Marxist.
 

Town Heretic

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I stand corrected. So in your mind Benjamin Franklin pretended* to believe in God just to get elected and have prosperous career in the new government?
So you didn't know he took elected office? Interesting.

To answer your question, no, I just don't think a call to prayer says much about the particulars. You should look at my post again. I added another comment and a letter Franklin wrote not long before his death.

* i.e. Ben Franklin was the colonial day version of Barack Hussein Obama, except that Franklin wasn't a baby murderer, a defender or sodomy or a Marxist.
No, I don't think Franklin and the President were much alike, though most of what you have to say about either seems to owe more to your desire than any objective, rational examination.
 

aCultureWarrior

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[Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale, shortly before his death; from "Benjamin Franklin" by Carl Van Doren, the October, 1938 Viking Press edition pages 777-778 Also see Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94]

Not that I don't appreciate an article out of a periodical that specializes in tracking chimpanzees in Africa (National Geographic), but I prefer to get my information from the guy who as I'd mentioned before owns around 100,000 articles/documents predating 1812.

Barton has quite a few pages dedicated to Franklin.
http://wallbuilders.com/searchresults.asp?q=Benjamin Frankliln
 

Town Heretic

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Not that I don't appreciate an article out of a periodical that specializes in tracking chimpanzees in Africa (National Geographic)
That's about as rational as I'd expect. Met with a fact from a reputable source you cling to whatever you can to preserve your emotional compulsion.

That's...almost as sad as you not knowing Franklin ran for and held multiple offices and posts. Ignorance may make you feel better, but it's a poor foundation for argument.
 

aCultureWarrior

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
I stand corrected. So in your mind Benjamin Franklin pretended* to believe in God just to get elected and have prosperous career in the new government?

So you didn't know he took elected office? Interesting.

(Everyone hide behind a large solid object, an overinflated ego is about to explode!).

I'm sure I knew about Franklin being Postmaster General and a foreign diplomat, but it wasn't at the front of my mind when I responded to your post.

To answer your question, no, I just don't think a call to prayer says much about the particulars. You should look at my post again. I added another comment and a letter Franklin wrote not long before his death.

I responded how impressed I am with National Geographic's knowledge of the Founding Fathers.


Quote:
* i.e. Ben Franklin was the colonial day version of Barack Hussein Obama, except that Franklin wasn't a baby murderer, a defender or sodomy or a Marxist.

No, I don't think Franklin and the President were much alike, though most of what you have to say about either seems to owe more to your desire than any objective, rational examination.

For someone who didn't vote for B. Hussein Obama a 2nd time, you seem rather protective of him.
 

Town Heretic

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The letter my ignorant friend wrongly attributes to National Geographic was, instead, reprinted by that publication and is owed to the work of Clinton Van Doren, a Franklin biographer, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his work on Franklin in 1939.
 
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