Mr. Religion's Religion

[Robert Pate]

What is so hard for me to fathom is that you are simply overlooking that in both of those passages, the implication is clear that not everyone actually IS reconciled to God. Both 2 Cor 5:20 and Col 1:21 make it plain that not all are reconciled. That the alienation is by being slaves to sin and haters of God. The reconciliation clearly is not universal else everyone would be reconciled to God (and Paul would not have to implore men to be so reconciled).

You have to chose to be reconciled to God by your own free will, or you are NOT reconciled.

 

[nikolai_42]

You have to chose to be reconciled to God by your own free will, or you are NOT reconciled.

But again, what reconciles us?

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10

An enemy does not simply "change sides" on a whim. This is the work of God in the heart. Enemies aren't simply persuaded to defect. If it were the case in the context of salvation, then your being reconciled to God would mean you would have to change your ways before you were reconciled. You would have to do that before God would reconcile you :

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Colossians 1:21

Man does not change himself - if he could, then the reconciliation could be according to (and through the impetus of) his will. But Paul told the Colossians that that is not the case. It is even more clear in the way he tells the Ephesian church :

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:1-6

There is no link here that depends on the will of man for success. For that to be the case, then man's nature could not be so opposed to God. There is no way a God-hater just decides to change.

 

[glorydaz]

God provides the reconciliation through Jesus Christ, but nothing is ours until it is received by faith. Salvation is available to everyone. God stands before humanity with open arms. Why do you support Calvinism if you believe this?

I don't "support Calvinism", Robert. I don't support Arminianism either. I just see a lot of arguing that is unnecessary and, frankly, overboard. What you said in yellow, above, is too often left out in order to make the point more powerful. Which, in turn, is met with resistance.

There is a middle ground of Truth that no one seems to want to get near.

 

[glorydaz]

But again, what reconciles us?

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:10

An enemy does not simply "change sides" on a whim. This is the work of God in the heart. Enemies aren't simply persuaded to defect. If it were the case in the context of salvation, then your being reconciled to God would mean you would have to change your ways before you were reconciled. You would have to do that before God would reconcile you :

NO. The only thing that has to change is one's unbelief to belief. That is where hearing the Gospel comes in. It is the power of God unto Salvation. How can they believe unless they hear? How can they hear without a preacher? The Gospel is how God persuades man to be reconciled to him.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Robert Pate's Refusal to Defend That Which He Holds Dear

Robert Pate's Refusal to Defend That Which He Holds Dear

Mr. Religion is the pope of Calvinism on this Forum. Since I am anti-Calvinist and pro Gospel there is a definite conflict between us.

Robert,

Our differences revolve around your implicit claims to be the last word of interpretation of Scripture in what you claim supports your views. When that claim is weighed against your many heterodoxies, the claim is specious. When any person sets themselves up as the voice of truth, consigning those that would disagree with their "truth" to eternal perdition, they should be examined closely having all their "truth claiming" words taken into account:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...or-Predestination/page3&p=4402162#post4402162

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...nd-the-Devil&p=4829299&viewfull=1#post4829299

Moreover, when a person starts hundreds of threads on the same topic, yet fails to stand still and actually substantively defend upon cross-examination what he asserts, he will get noticed by not a few.

Spoiler

Robert, you diluting what you are trying to convey with this many threads on the subject. I get the impression you are trying to build your post count back up. I will start locking the threads if you keep this up. This many threads is unnecessary and redundant. A couple well managed threads is a better approach.

@Robert Pate My sole issue with you is Redundancy. You dilute your argument when you start multiple threads on the same topic. You do not see AMR or Lon doing it. They start only a few threads and they keep them well maintained. That approach builds a much stronger argument.

If you do not like the scrutiny of your opinions, proffer them less, or make yourself ready to seriously defend them.

The sign of a heretic is that they believe everyone is going to hell except them.

Try living with your own counsel to others, Robert. :AMR:


I have offered it many times and will do so once more:

Any time you want to engage me in a one-on-one venue where you are unable to bob and weave, cut and run with ad hominem wave offs, I am ready, willing, and most able. Are you? I think not as you have made clear each time I make the offer. Rather, you prefer to seek the shelter of appeal to the crowd leaving it to others to run interference for you while you retreat behind declaration of lost, hell bound, and sin bent for all that would disagree with you.​

Perhaps a new rule is needed at any site that discusses weighty matters:

When a member starts a call-out thread like this one, said member must then agree to subject themselves to cross-examination by the one so called out in a venue that permits only the call-out thread author and the one so called out to participate (a one-on-one forum). The option to require cross-examine remains with the one so called out. If the called out person opts to cross-examine and the person who started the call-out thread refuses to be cross-examined and substantively defend the claims made in their call-out thread, that person will immediately be branded a coward, murmurer, and attention seeker. Moreover, two refusals by the same person refusing to substantively defend their claims made in their call-out threads will result in a lengthy ban from the site in question.​

AMR

 

[Robert Pate]

Mr. Religion.

There is not really any sense in debating with you. You have writings other than the Bible that you believe. These writings that you have embraced were written by a heretic back in the 1500's. You have his picture on the bottom of your page.

Your Calvinist religion is in opposition to the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. In those two scriptures you are already refuted. There are so many scriptures that are in conflict with your Calvinist doctrine it is no wonder that you need other writings than the Bible. This is what the religious do, they write their own doctrine and then try to mix it with the Bible, problem is it doesn't mix.

I don't know how you can possibly believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. What a terrible thing to believe about God, nor can I understand why you do not believe that Jesus has defeated sin death and the devil and is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. This is probably what is going to send you to hell. You apparently do not believe in the Lordship of Jesus.

Jesus said, "I said therefore unto you, that you will die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he (Lord or God) YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS" John 8:24.

Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47. You have some serious problems with God's word. The reason being is because you are void of the Holy Spirit. If you had the Holy Spirit you would believe these scriptures.

 

[nikolai_42]

NO. The only thing that has to change is one's unbelief to belief. That is where hearing the Gospel comes in. It is the power of God unto Salvation. How can they believe unless they hear? How can they hear without a preacher? The Gospel is how God persuades man to be reconciled to him.

I agree with everything you have said - except I wouldn't use the term persuade. If people are by nature children of wrath and enemies of God in their mind by wicked works, then persuasion is not the answer. From an external point of view it is. Persuasion (this is my thought) is a description of our work - the term appears in the book of Acts (KJV!) quite a few times in the context of evangelical activity by the apostles - but when it comes down to it, none of us convinces or convicts another. That - as all believers will agree - is the role of the Holy Spirit. So persuasion (again, as I see it) is an understanding of our labors while the real work is being done by God behind the scenes. And that work is not ever in vain. As soon as one believes, however (which is something we can't do anything about ourselves), a transformation has happened. A man's salvation can't be based on a series of logical concessions since it is a moral transformation (not crazy about the term, but it gets the idea across). If it could, then the logic of the Law would be sufficient to save a man. But no man is justified by it. Then there is the fact that this moral issue goes to submission to God:

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
Luke 19:27

The Jews were after Jesus constantly - not because what He said and did was perceived as wrong, but because He threatened their self-rule. He had real authority (e.g. Matt 7:28-29 and John 7:46) and not the power of the Pharisees (who had authority but wrested it for their own ends). They were enemies. They were not going to (all of a sudden) admit Jesus was right and confess faith. Only a spiritual overthrow would change that. Then there would be faith and the second that faith is active, the truth is apprehended. That can be seen in Paul's conversion. There is no persuading enemies. Only piling on the truth and let the Holy Spirit change a man.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

...

I have offered it many times and will do so once more:

Any time you want to engage me in a one-on-one venue where you are unable to bob and weave, cut and run with ad hominem wave offs, I am ready, willing, and most able. Are you? I think not as you have made clear each time I make the offer. Rather, you prefer to seek the shelter of appeal to the crowd leaving it to others to run interference for you while you retreat behind declaration of lost, hell bound, and sin bent for all that would disagree with you.​

Mr. Religion.

There is not really any sense in debating with you.

Q. E. D.

If you are going to post call-out threads in my direction have the decency to meet me in a venue wherein only you and I can discuss in detail your claims, else admit your sin in violating the ninth commandment and its obligations.

Spoiler

From the WLC...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?
A143: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other¹ and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.² We must come forward and stand up for the truth,³ speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,⁴ sincerely,⁵ freely,⁶ clearly,⁷ and without equivocation,⁸ not only in all matters relating to the law and justice⁹ but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.¹⁰ We must have a charitable regard for others,¹¹ loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation¹² as well as regretting¹³ and putting the best light on their failings.¹⁴ We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,¹⁵ defending their innocence,¹⁶ readily receiving a good report about them¹⁷ and reluctantly admitting a bad one.¹⁸ We should discourage gossips,¹⁹ flatterers,²⁰ and slanderers;²¹ we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;²² we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;²³ and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.²⁴


1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.


Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,¹ with special reference to legal matters in the courts.² We must not give untrue evidence,³ suborn perjury,⁴ knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.⁵ We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,⁶ call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.⁷ Forgery is forbidden,⁸ as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,⁹ and not taking it on ourselves to reprove¹⁰ or complain to others about some wrong.¹¹ We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,¹² or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,¹³ nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,¹⁴ into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.¹⁵ Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,¹⁶ as well as lying,¹⁷ slandering,¹⁸ backbiting,¹⁹ belittling,²⁰ gossiping,²¹ whispering,²² ridiculing,²³ reviling,²⁴ and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,²⁵ harsh,²⁶ or prejudiced;²⁷ misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;²⁸ flattery²⁹ and ostentatious boasting;³⁰ thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;³¹ denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;³² exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;³³ concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;³⁴ gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;³⁵ spreading false rumors,³⁶ receiving and approving evil reports,³⁷ and refusing to listen to a just defense;³⁸ harboring evil suspicions;³⁹ being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,⁴⁰ trying to discredit those honors,⁴¹ and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;⁴² scornful contempt⁴³ and foolish admiration;⁴⁴ breaking our lawful promises;⁴⁵ and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,⁴⁶ and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.⁴⁷


1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tim 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tim 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt 21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt 27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tim 3.3.
46. 1 Sm 2.24,2 Sam 2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

 

[glorydaz]

I agree with everything you have said - except I wouldn't use the term persuade. If people are by nature children of wrath and enemies of God in their mind by wicked works, then persuasion is not the answer. From an external point of view it is. Persuasion (this is my thought) is a description of our work - the term appears in the book of Acts (KJV!) quite a few times in the context of evangelical activity by the apostles - but when it comes down to it, none of us convinces or convicts another.

You're correct that none of us convinces others, but the word of God does, which is why we preach the Gospel.

By way of analogy.....When I see the rain pouring from the sky, and feel it soaking my hair and face, I'm persuaded it's raining. When I was convicted (convinced) by the truth of the Bible, it was because I hearkened to what I was actually reading and hearing. True, I was ready to hear. My understanding that something was missing was real. I was at a time in my life that I was ripe to hear. I was seeking without even being aware I was seeking. It was the word of God that persuaded me in the end.

That - as all believers will agree - is the role of the Holy Spirit. So persuasion (again, as I see it) is an understanding of our labors while the real work is being done by God behind the scenes. And that work is not ever in vain. As soon as one believes, however (which is something we can't do anything about ourselves), a transformation has happened. A man's salvation can't be based on a series of logical concessions since it is a moral transformation (not crazy about the term, but it gets the idea across). If it could, then the logic of the Law would be sufficient to save a man. But no man is justified by it. Then there is the fact that this moral issue goes to submission to God:

Certainly when the love of God is shed abroad on our hearts, we are transformed. We love God.

 

[glorydaz]

There is not really any sense in debating with you.

What a terrible thing to believe about God, nor can I understand why you do not believe that Jesus has defeated sin death and the devil and is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. This is probably what is going to send you to hell. You apparently do not believe in the Lordship of Jesus.

Jesus said, "I said therefore unto you, that you will die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he (Lord or God) YOU SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS" John 8:24.

Jesus claims to be the savior of the whole world, John 12:47. You have some serious problems with God's word. The reason being is because you are void of the Holy Spirit. If you had the Holy Spirit you would believe these scriptures.

I'm surprised you say these things, Robert, since I've read what AMR says, and I've never seen him deny the "Lordship of Jesus". I'm not even sure what you mean by the term. AMR clearly sees that Jesus is the ONE LORD GOD.

Jesus doesn't claim the whole world is saved, but that Salvation is provided by the Lord Jesus Christ. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour". I know AMR believes that, too. So, saying something like that, which isn't really true, seems a bit odd to me. Why do it? :idunno:

 

[nikolai_42]

You're correct that none of us convinces others, but the word of God does, which is why we preach the Gospel.

By way of analogy.....When I see the rain pouring from the sky, and feel it soaking my hair and face, I'm persuaded it's raining. When I was convicted (convinced) by the truth of the Bible, it was because I hearkened to what I was actually reading and hearing. True, I was ready to hear. My understanding that something was missing was real. I was at a time in my life that I was ripe to hear. I was seeking without even being aware I was seeking. It was the word of God that persuaded me in the end.



Certainly when the love of God is shed abroad on our hearts, we are transformed. We love God.

I have about 2 minutes but want to make sure I get in a quick response. You may be convinced that it is raining, but the state of those who are enemies of God is one of hardening. They don't want God to be God or His rule to hold sway. So it is that the Sadducees demanded a sign. I see it as the same spirit of approach as Jesus responded to in John 6:31-31. They were testing His authority so they could find a reason not to obey. When they didn't, they didn't respond by saying "Okay, you're right, you are God." and believe Him. Rather, they killed Him. Likewise anyone who hates the Truth. Atheists typically are not those who don't believe in God, but rather don't want to admit of Him because of the bearing it has on them. Paul typified that in his day and the change wrought in him was beyond logical reasoning.

 

[Robert Pate]

I'm surprised you say these things, Robert, since I've read what AMR says, and I've never seen him deny the "Lordship of Jesus". I'm not even sure what you mean by the term. AMR clearly sees that Jesus is the ONE LORD GOD.

Jesus doesn't claim the whole world is saved, but that Salvation is provided by the Lord Jesus Christ. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no Saviour". I know AMR believes that, too. So, saying something like that, which isn't really true, seems a bit odd to me. Why do it? :idunno:

You cannot sincerely say that Jesus is Lord and then in the next breath say that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world as described in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14. Nor can you say that Jesus is Lord and then deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

Calvinism is a denial of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

This is very serious because no one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus is Lord.

"For if you believe not that I AM HE (LORD OR GOD) YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS" John 8:24.

Now, Mr. Religion is very crafty and will probably do a 1000 word discertation on why he believes that Jesus is Lord when he doesn't really believe that Jesus is Lord. Believing that Jesus is one Lord God does not mean that one believes that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is the savior of the whole world.

You, like many others on the Forum have been taken in by this Gospel hating heretic.

 

[glorydaz]

I have about 2 minutes but want to make sure I get in a quick response. You may be convinced that it is raining, but the state of those who are enemies of God is one of hardening. They don't want God to be God or His rule to hold sway. So it is that the Sadducees demanded a sign. I see it as the same spirit of approach as Jesus responded to in John 6:31-31. They were testing His authority so they could find a reason not to obey. When they didn't, they didn't respond by saying "Okay, you're right, you are God." and believe Him. Rather, they killed Him. Likewise anyone who hates the Truth. Atheists typically are not those who don't believe in God, but rather don't want to admit of Him because of the bearing it has on them. Paul typified that in his day and the change wrought in him was beyond logical reasoning.

Not all men are enemies in that they are so hardened that they cannot turn to God and believe. As Paul points out, there are those who "do by nature" the things contained in God's law. Romans 2:14. Also that God's goodness leads men to repentance.

Romans 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?​

There have always been men such as Cain, and also those such as Abel. Some men do the best they can in this world of sin, but fall short. Paul is a perfect example of that. He was blameless under the law. He was doing what he thought was right. Others revel in their iniquity and remain in contention with God. "Ye would not"......not "Ye could not".

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,​

 

[glorydaz]

You cannot sincerely say that Jesus is Lord and then in the next breath say that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world as described in 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14. Nor can you say that Jesus is Lord and then deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world.

Calvinism is a denial of the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

This is very serious because no one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus is Lord.

"For if you believe not that I AM HE (LORD OR GOD) YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS" John 8:24.

Now, Mr. Religion is very crafty and will probably do a 1000 word discertation on why he believes that Jesus is Lord when he doesn't really believe that Jesus is Lord. Believing that Jesus is one Lord God does not mean that one believes that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is the savior of the whole world.

You, like many others on the Forum have been taken in by this Gospel hating heretic.

No, Robert, I have not been taken in by anything.

I've merely been pointing out that the verses you stand on, such as those in 1 John, are no better than the verses AMR stands on when speaking of total depravity. They only tell a part of the story.

Propitiation is only made effectual through "faith in His blood", but you don't consider that in your denunciation of AMR. Why are you taking what John says, and tossing out what Paul says concerning the word "propitiation"? That propitiation is only effectual "through faith in His blood".

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

I realize this, because the same thing just happened to me. I've been accused of saying one thing, and watched it being twisted simply because the twister refused to listen to the rest of the story.

You do the same thing.....you add the stipulation that if you don't believe, you will die in your sins. AMR says Christ's death was sufficient for all, but not effectual for all. John says it's sufficient for all, and Paul says it's made effectual through faith in His blood.

Look at the verses that contain the word "propitiation". It's very clear that it's exactly like the word "reconciliation". Christ death took care of God's wrath against sinful man, but each sinful man must yet BE RECONCILED when they believe. I've been saying this for years, so you can't blame AMR for influencing what I say.

 

[Robert Pate]

No, Robert, I have not been taken in by anything.

I've merely been pointing out that the verses you stand on, such as those in 1 John, are no better than the verses AMR stands on when speaking of total depravity. They only tell a part of the story.

Propitiation is only made effectual through "faith in His blood", but you don't consider that in your denunciation of AMR. Why are you taking what John says, and tossing out what Paul says concerning the word "propitiation"? That propitiation is only effectual "through faith in His blood".

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

I realize this, because the same thing just happened to me. I've been accused of saying one thing, and watched it being twisted simply because the twister refused to listen to the rest of the story.

You do the same thing.....you add the stipulation that if you don't believe, you will die in your sins. AMR says Christ's death was sufficient for all, but not effectual for all. John says it's sufficient for all, and Paul says it's made effectual through faith in His blood.

Look at the verses that contain the word "propitiation". It's very clear that it's exactly like the word "reconciliation". Christ death took care of God's wrath against sinful man, but each sinful man must yet BE RECONCILED when they believe. I've been saying this for years, so you can't blame AMR for influencing what I say.

Our faith does not bring into existence what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the savior of the WHOLE world, whether we believe it or not. AMR does not believe that, therefore he does not believe the Gospel. Salvation has been made available to all men, AMR does not believe that. He believes that salvation has only been made available to some men. I did not say that If you don't believe that Jesus is Lord you will die in your sins. The Bible says that, John 8:24. AMR denies that Jesus is Lord. AMR is in denial of the Gospel and justification by faith and is under the judgment of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Our faith does not bring into existence what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the savior of the WHOLE world, whether we believe it or not. AMR does not believe that, therefore he does not believe the Gospel. Salvation has been made available to all men, AMR does not believe that. He believes that salvation has only been made available to some men. I did not say that If you don't believe that Jesus is Lord you will die in your sins. The Bible says that, John 8:24. AMR denies that Jesus is Lord. AMR is in denial of the Gospel and justification by faith and is under the judgment of God.

Forget about AMR for a second, would you?

You just seemed to contradict yourself. Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole world, or has Salvation been "made available" to the whole world? I say this because the whole world is not saved, rather Jesus is the ONLY means of Salvation for mankind. Don't you agree?

 

[patrick jane]

Forget about AMR for a second, would you?

You just seemed to contradict yourself. Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole world, or has Salvation been "made available" to the whole world? I say this because the whole world is not saved, rather Jesus is the ONLY means of Salvation for mankind. Don't you agree?

Titus 2:11 NIV - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Romans 5:1 KJV - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Romans 5:2 KJV - By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't accept Calvinism at all. But I have to admit that no one here shows a better imitation of Christ than Mr. Religion.

That doesn't necessarily make him right, but it surely says that there is something in his faith that leads him the right way.

And that, in the end, is what will matter.

 

[Sherman]

Locked because :
A. This is a callout
B: You have quite a few threads addressing Calvinism.

Please keep it down to a few well maintained threads. While we enjoy debates on Open Theism versus Calvinism, having a hundred threads on the subject does not serve the topic very well. Recall when Michael Cadry had one thread on Creationism. That thread became very popular, in fact it was the most popular thread on TOL. You could have the same thing by making one thread on Open Theism versus Calvinism.