Mr. Religion and His Calvinistic Nonsense

[Crucible]

I asked you first. I'll bet you don't have an answer. Just make one up and I might just buy it if it sounds clear and concise?

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.
Even Jesus had his moment of doubt, are you better than Jesus?

The only people I really hear talk about 'knowing' are those as yourself. I don't see it among Calvinists, Catholics, or even Methodists- just you all, who really just try to grandstand over everyone in matters of faith.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.
Even Jesus had his moment of doubt, are you better than Jesus?

The only people I really hear talk about 'knowing' are those as yourself. I don't see it among Calvinists, Catholics, or even Methodists- just you all, who really just try to grandstand over everyone in matters of faith.

It's led to nothing but plain, undesirable heresy.

So, you don't know if you're saved. You're on a "Wait and see" program, right?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Elect are those who are quickened by the Gospel.

Of course after someone believes the gospel they are then considered the "elect."

You claim that God's Word has so much power, and yet deny that it directly draws the Elect- that it's something that God's elect can be deaf to. How much do you want to trivialize of God's sovereignty to account for your free will?

I never said anything of the sort!

Will you answer my question about how a person receives "faith"? Does he receive it in the way which Paul says here?:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).​

Thanks!

 

[Crucible]

So, you don't know if you're saved. You're on a "Wait and see" program, right?

Everyone is on a 'wait and see' program, but not with salvation vs damnation, but if there is life after death.

The Bible never comes off of 'faith'. At it's most, it is 'mountain moving faith'.
'Knowing' is not something for mankind.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.

The Apostle John knew that he was saved and likewise we who have true faith know that we are saved. John said the following to Christians:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

You might be unsure of your salvation but Christians with true faith KNOW they are saved. No doubt about it!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.
Even Jesus had his moment of doubt, are you better than Jesus?

The only people I really hear talk about 'knowing' are those as yourself. I don't see it among Calvinists, Catholics, or even Methodists- just you all, who really just try to grandstand over everyone in matters of faith.

1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Crucible]

The Apostle John knew that he was saved and likewise we who have true faith know that we are saved. John said the following to Christians:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

You might be unsure of your salvation but Christians with true faith KNOW they are saved. No doubt about it!

Peter saw Jesus perform miracles, and he still denied him after Gethsemane.

In fact, it wasn't until they saw him assume into Heaven that they became fearless- as that is what it took to turn their faith into knowing.

You all need to stop conflating faith with such.

 

[Samie]

On another thread Mr. Religion said the following:



Here is what I said in response and so far he hasn't responded:

Paul and those with him certainly saw a "cause and effect" relationship between "faith" and "salvation," as witnessed by how they answered this question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

Do you not see that "believing" results in "salvation," that it is "faith" which brings about "salvation"? Here Paul again speaks of a "cause and effect" relationship between "believing" and "salvation":

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

Do you really not see a "cause and effect" relationship between "faith" and "salvation"?​

Just today I received the following response from another person on another thread:



Are there any Calvinists out there who would like to defend what Mr. Religion said or what Samie said?

Thanks!

I was already fast asleep when this thread started.

As far as this thread goes, no one attempted to refute my position that people are born already in Christ, and hence In Christ FIRST AND FOREMOST before they can believe.

Spoiler

If it is true that people has to first believe before he can be saved, as Jerry and most others teach, then people can NEVER be saved.

If one is NOT yet saved, he is not yet in Christ. If he is not yet in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, then he has yet no faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he has no faith, then he cannot believe. And if he cannot believe, he cannot be saved according to Jerry's doctrine.

Jerry tried to counter by quoting Rom 10:17 that faith comes by hearing the word of God. So, unless one hears he cannot have faith he can use to believe. What comes first being in Christ or hearing?

The Bible says that Christ is our life. If one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead. If one is spiritually dead, he cannot hear spiritual things. If he cannot hear then he cannot have faith. And we are back to square one.

People need to be in Christ FIRST and FOREMOST so he can hear, then have faith, and then believe. And to be in Christ is to be saved. So saved first before one can believe.

But Jerry wants the cart before the horse.

He quotes Paul's statement to the jailer that he will be saved if he believes. And Paul was correct, of course. It was Jerry's understanding that was wrong.

Paul was correct that people will be saved if they believe.

will be saved is FUTURE tense, NOT Past Tense. People are born already saved, this is PAST tense. And for people to benefit from the FUTURE Tense will be saved , they have to overcome the evil of UNBELIEF by overcoming it. People overcome the evil of UNBELIEF when they BELIEVE. They can believe because they have faith, being in Christ.

If they refuse to believe, then they are not overcomers and Christ will blot their names from the book of life and they will end up in the lake of fire.

Scriptures make clear that to be in Christ precedes believing, that is, saved first before one can believe.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I was already fast asleep when this thread started.

As far as this thread goes, no one attempted to refute my position that people are born already in Christ, and hence In Christ FIRST AND FOREMOST before they can believe.

Spoiler

If it is true that people has to first believe before he can be saved, as Jerry and most others teach, then people can NEVER be saved.

If one is NOT yet saved, he is not yet in Christ. If he is not yet in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, then he has yet no faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he has no faith, then he cannot believe. And if he cannot believe, he cannot be saved according to Jerry's doctrine.

Jerry tried to counter by quoting Rom 10:17 that faith comes by hearing the word of God. So, unless one hears he cannot have faith he can use to believe. What comes first being in Christ or hearing?

The Bible says that Christ is our life. If one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead. If one is spiritually dead, he cannot hear spiritual things. If he cannot hear then he cannot have faith. And we are back to square one.

People need to be in Christ FIRST and FOREMOST so he can hear, then have faith, and then believe. And to be in Christ is to be saved. So saved first before one can believe.

But Jerry wants the cart before the horse.

He quotes Paul's statement to the jailer that he will be saved if he believes. And Paul was correct, of course. It was Jerry's understanding that was wrong.

Paul was correct that people will be saved if they believe.

will be saved is FUTURE tense, NOT Past Tense. People are born already saved, this is PAST tense. And for people to benefit from the FUTURE Tense will be saved , they have to overcome the evil of UNBELIEF by overcoming it. People overcome the evil of UNBELIEF when they BELIEVE. They can believe because they have faith, being in Christ.

If they refuse to believe, then they are not overcomers and Christ will blot their names from the book of life and they will end up in the lake of fire.

Scriptures make clear that to be in Christ precedes believing, that is, saved first before one can believe.

What church or denomination are you affiliated with?

 

[God's Truth]

Calvinism is anti-faith, anti-Gospel, anti-Christ and anti-God.

It has got to be the worst doctrine ever conceived by the depraved mind of man.

...as is the doctrine of you do not have to obey Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Found a gem of a quote from Charles Spurgeon on this matter... Please tell me if you see the ill in it.

“Among all those who have been born of women, there has not risen a greater than John Calvin; no age, before him ever produced his equal, and no age afterwards has seen his rival. In theology, he stands alone, shining like a bright fixed star, while other leaders and teachers can only circle round him, at a great distance — as comets go streaming through space — with nothing like his glory or his permanence” . . . “the longer I live the clearer does it appear that John Calvin’s system is the nearest to perfection.”
~ Charles Spurgeon

Unbelievable; did he really say that? Wow.

 

[God's Truth]

One can't believe until they are saved. Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8,

Those who ONLY want to please their flesh cannot please God.

We are not just flesh we also have a spirit.

and the Gospel is hidden to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3. As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden from them, and they believe not!

All they have to do is turn to Jesus.

2 Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[God's Truth]

The best way to defend the Trinity is by quoting from the word of God, not by quoting what some men say about the Trinity.

The trinity doctrine comes from the apostate Catholics. Won't you look into it further?

 

[God's Truth]

I'm not sure of what you are saying, but the point I attempted to make is....
The belief in the trinity comes from scripture...not from a church.

There are three, but the three are one and the same and not separate and distinct as the Catholic denomination teaches.

 

[God's Truth]

Then believe what He says. He says there is One Church.

The one and only church is Jesus Christ and those saved.

 

[Tambora]

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.

I do.

 

[Crucible]

I do.

You're a liar.

If you knew it, you wouldn't be the way you are. Simply put.

You all boast, is all.

 

[Tambora]

You're a liar.

As are you.
But I'm not lying about this.

 

[God's Truth]

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.
Even Jesus had his moment of doubt, are you better than Jesus?

That is what the evil Catholic church says.
They teach to come to 'Her' and you will have the truth.
They are a lie and keep people separate from Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

Nobody 'knows' they are saved.
Even Jesus had his moment of doubt, are you better than Jesus?

The only people I really hear talk about 'knowing' are those as yourself. I don't see it among Calvinists, Catholics, or even Methodists- just you all, who really just try to grandstand over everyone in matters of faith.

What do you want us to do? You want us to come to the Catholic church and not have salvation?