Monday is Robert E. Lee day in Alabama.

[PureX]

Again, they, most people, didn't make the decision. They served that landed gentry who held the reigns of power, just as captains of industry held the reigns of power in the north.

All they had to do was say 'no'. But instead, they were willing to kill their fellow citizens, and destroy their own nation so their overlords could try to stay overlords.

No, I think they were in agreement with their slave system, because no matter how poor they were, they were still white.

Of course you won't. You're clearly better than they were. Which is the way most of that sort of trouble begins. If you can deny or marginalize like that it becomes increasingly easier to justify nearly any treatment. Slavery is the child of that sentiment.

Stop making excuses for them just because you're a southerner.

The South as an economic institution had as its principle engine that very practice, which I noted. But again, most of those who lived in the South didn't own slaves.

No, but they wanted to. And they certainly agreed with the practice. So I don't see how you think this matters.

What they wanted was a way to assure themselves of the same general power base and to expand, as all businesses do, into new markets. It was about increasing wealth and power and matching competing interests (which was much broader than the question of slavery, as politics will be).

It was not "broader than the question of slavery", because it was all built upon the backs of slaves. Without slavery, they had no wealth or power to expand. And no social standing, either.

It was an americanized version of aristocracy built on slavery; not just for the exploited labor, but for social prominence built into that system. That's why poor whites fought to protect a system that was robbing them, economically.

All this sounds so familiar, even today. I swear, that damn war never really ended. The wanna-be aristocrats and their white trash army are still with us. Still fighting to destroy the nation just to get back their sick, elitist (exploitive) way of life.

That's just a way of casting the Union in widow's weeds. They desired an independence they believed they had a right to. The war settled that issue, happily for me and less for some (and not all of those Southern).

It never really settled it. The traitors are still out there, looking for any chance to create division. And they are still being supported and encouraged by the moneyed elite.

And most of them are still in the south because that old resentment still lingers, there.

So much wrong with that...to begin with, you have to stop getting your knowledge of Southerners from that mythology you're invested in.

I lived in the south, and was illuminated on many occasions about how there were still lots of folks carrying on the Civil War in their hearts and minds. And I met some of them. It's morphed some through the generations, but it's still there.

I'd say history is replete with those willing to judge others who lived within a different context and do it by their own. And someone will likely judge us and you much the same one of these.

Such is life.

They are still traitors.

Maybe you should create a post where you see how many times you can work that word in, assuming this wasn't it.

… Traitors.

 

[resodko]

~what did I just read~

General Lee was awesome. They had less men and cotton fields for resources, and still made the North struggle plenty. If it were fair game, they would have won.

lee fought to retain the right of the south to continue the evil enslavement of the black man


he was an evil man whom God would have struck down one way or another

You can't have a bias on the Civil War and call yourself American.

i sure can


my great great grandfather spent considerable of his fortune and effort to raise a regiment in buffalo to go and do the Lord's work bringing His wrath down upon the evil southerners

 

[resodko]

Stop making excuses for them just because you're a southerner.

it's not that he's a southerner

it's that he comes from a long line of southern whites and is riddled with guilt over the fact that his advantages and position in life rests squarely on his ancestor's evil practices

 

[Town Heretic]

I agree with Abraham Lincoln's interpretation of the Constitution, you agree with Jefferson Davis' interpretation.

No, I haven't really introduced my personal opinion on it. I was noting the conflict over the less than unanimous view on the power of the states in that regard. I'm actually a Union man, glad the South lost that war for the reason I set out about a potential generational continuance, though I think for a number of reasons it would have diminished.

Earlier, I posted a copy of Article I, Section X (BTW, your link never mentions Article I, Section X)

Here is the first sentence:

"No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation"

It's hard for me to understand how the above sentence isn't explicit, and how the Southern states weren't in violation of it.

No state exists as such that removes itself from the Union would be the obvious answer. It's a parallel to answering on the traitor charge. Burr, who used his position to betray American forces while under its colors, was a traitor. Lee, who resigned his commission and left, so far as the South and those states who seceded were concerned, one country to serve another, was not.

it's not that he's a southerner

it's that he comes from a long line of southern whites and is riddled with guilt over the fact that his advantages and position in life rests squarely on his ancestor's evil practices

No, as I've set out more than once, my family fought on either side in the conflict. We have Union and Confederate dead among our number, though they were all from Southern families.

I don't have guilt for acts I didn't commit. That would be irrational.

 

[Granite]

~what did I just read~

General Lee was awesome. They had less men and cotton fields for resources, and still made the North struggle plenty. If it were fair game, they would have won.

You can't have a bias on the Civil War and call yourself American. That's genuine, proud history. Move to England :wave:

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[TomO]

We may well have to fight a civil war in this nation, again, to get back control of our own government from the profiteers that now control it. And where will the southern traitors be when that time comes? Still hatin' on the yankees and the queers and the ejucated 'liberals' and still looking to secede, I imagine, like the selfish ignoramuses that they always were.

ureX:

 

[resodko]

Lee, who resigned his commission and left, so far as the South and those states who seceded were concerned, one country to serve another, was not.

so if an american citizen becomes a radicalized muslim, renounces his citizenship and commits terrorist attacks against the american government, he's not a traitor?

 

[The Berean]

so if an american citizen becomes a radicalized muslim, renounces his citizenship and commits terrorist attacks against the american government, he's not a traitor?

Sounds like John Walker Lindh. Remember him?

 

[resodko]

yep

 

[Town Heretic]

All they had to do was say 'no'.

No, they'd have had to do a great deal more than that, given the economic thrall of so many. And it's worth noting that as with their northern cousins, a very large segment of the society was simply racist. They weren't going to kill their cousin or lose their livelihood over the social order of the day.

But instead, they were willing to kill their fellow citizens, and destroy their own nation so their overlords could try to stay overlords.

Or, they were willing to defend their fields and general way of life. People from the north were doing the same.

No, I think they were in agreement with their slave system, because no matter how poor they were, they were still white.

I'll just let that speak for itself...remarkable.

Stop making excuses for them just because you're a southerner.

Stop mischaracterizing what I'm doing because you've bought into a narrative.

No, but they wanted to.

You already did the mind reading bit in your last. It's no less self serving, void of objective value and goofy here.

It was not "broader than the question of slavery",

You need the context. Politics is always broader than any single issue.

because it was all built upon the backs of slaves. Without slavery, they had no wealth or power to expand. And no social standing, either.

You could say the same of much of the north built upon the textiles and agricultural bounty procured by that same system.

All this sounds so familiar, even today. I swear, that damn war never really ended. The wanna-be aristocrats and their white trash army are still with us.

As long as people hate the dead for the wrong reasons and conflate the living with them it won't end, for those who sustain it. As for me and mine, it reached a just conclusion and we're all better for it, even if it took another hundred years to begin the process of doing more than ending an evil practice.

Still fighting to destroy the nation just to get back their sick, elitist (exploitive) way of life.

That's nuts, when you think about it.

It never really settled it. The traitors are still out there, looking for any chance to create division. And they are still being supported and encouraged by the moneyed elite.

Not long ago it was communists. We always have to have someone to feel better than, don't we...and by we I mostly mean people like you at present.

And most of them are still in the south because that old resentment still lingers, there.

No, not really.

I lived in the south, and was illuminated on many occasions about how there were still lots of folks carrying on the Civil War in their hearts and minds.

Spare me the "lived in the South" nonsense. Where, when and for how long? Heck, I spent a few years in the north, I must be an expert.

And I met some of them. It's morphed some through the generations, but it's still there. They are still traitors.

Not unless you don't understand the legal or meaningful use of the term, but I suspect this is just that desire to feel superior I noted, the root of that ill, carried forward in you and lost in your zeal. More's the pity.

… Traitors.

Supra. But at least you're shedding some of it as we go.

 

[resodko]

...Or, they were willing to defend their fields and general way of life..

their fields, which were worked by black men who were seen as farm animals?

their general way of life, which rested on the brutal oppression of their fellow man?

 

[Angel4Truth]

We may well have to fight a civil war in this nation, again, to get back control of our own government from the profiteers that now control it. And where will the southern traitors be when that time comes? Still hatin' on the yankees and the queers and the ejucated 'liberals' and still looking to secede, I imagine, like the selfish ignoramuses that they always were.

Seems like you would enjoy that, why do you wish to force others to include people you disdain? Why insist on diversity with people you don't wish to be around?

Why does it bother you so bad if some people wish to remain with like-minded people?

 

[Granite]

Seems like you would enjoy that, why do you wish to force others to include people you disdain? Why insist on diversity with people you don't wish to be around?

Why does it bother you so bad if some people wish to remain with like-minded people?

When such people want to rewrite history (and then some) that's a problem.

 

[Angel4Truth]

When such people want to rewrite history (and then some) that's a problem.

Or distort it, like you did, the civil war was about states rights primarily, slavery was secondary, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, you show your ignorance of history when you eliminate the main reason.

You also show your desperation, by taking what i adressed with purex (modern day issues) and pretending we were discussing something else...

 

[Granite]

Or distort it, like you did, the civil war was about states rights primarily, slavery was secondary, no matter how much you wish it were otherwise, you show your ignorance of history when you eliminate the main reason.

The preservation of slavery and the white man's supremacy over the black was the cornerstone of the Confederacy. Stephens said it himself. Read that speech of his if you like. It's blood curdling.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The preservation of slavery and the white man's supremacy over the black was the cornerstone of the Confederacy.

Lincoln said the same thing, that whites were supreme. He wanted to ship all the blacks to liberia, and ive already given evidence.

Now how about letting pure x adress the totally different issue i commented on, thanks.

 

[Granite]

Lincoln said the same thing, that whites were supreme. He wanted to ship all the blacks to liberia, and ive already given evidence.

Now how about letting pure x adress the totally different issue i commented on, thanks.

Lincoln's views changed over time and he never once claimed the United States was founded specifically as a racist nation dedicated to the enslavement of blacks. To compare the two men is insulting and frankly pretty asinine on your part.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Lincoln's views changed over time and he never once claimed the United States was founded specifically as a racist nation dedicated to the enslavement of blacks. To compare the two men is insulting and frankly pretty asinine on your part.

Keep talking while others read the information i already shared. He never stopped believing that whites were superior, or that it would be better that blacks had their own colony or shipped back to africa, he just knew later that it was not feasible to do so, because they would most likely be sold into slavery again, if not here then somewhere else.

We've been over this, your repeating what isnt true, over and over wont make it true. You can also keep pretending, like a good liberal, that it is how you want it to be, and is the truth when it isnt.

If you are too lazy to study actual history, sad for you, not my problem.

 

[Granite]

Keep talking while others read the information i already shared. He never stopped believing that whites were superior, or that it would be better that blacks had their own colony or shipped back to africa, he just knew later that it was not feasible to do so, because they would most likely be sold into slavery again, if not here then somewhere else.

We've been over this, your repeating what isnt true, over and over wont make it true. You can also keep pretending, like a good liberal, that it is how you want it to be, and is the truth when it isnt.

If you are too lazy to study actual history, sad for you, not my problem.

Do yourself a favor and read the Cornerstone Speech. Also, enough with this "liberal" idiocy on your part. It's lazy, dumb, and a complete waste of time.

I've had enough of your smarmy little shtick, catch you kids tomorrow.

Get yourself a clue and stop defending people who literally died for the right to own someone else.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Do yourself a favor and read the Cornerstone Speech. Also, enough with this "liberal" idiocy on your part. It's lazy, dumb, and a complete waste of time.

I've had enough of your smarmy little shtick, catch you kids tomorrow.

Get yourself a clue and stop defending people who literally died for the right to own someone else.

Lazy and dumb, is denying actual history while being too lazy to research it for yourself.

Idiocy is pretending i support something i dont, because you dont like being wrong about something.