Mass shooting in Orlando, Florida USA 20 dead

[serpentdove]

His hatred was home-grown.

:dizzy: "The Orland gay club gunman's father has well-known anti-American views and is an ideological supporter of the Afghan Taliban..." Full text: Orlando gunman's father posts new video message Ge 16:12, Jer 7:6, GWT :CRASH:

 

[ClimateSanity]

It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Lets say we had "defeated" radical Islam and their brand of terrorism a long time ago. How many shootings on that list would be gone? Three and only one of the top 5.

Does that refute any argument made here?

 

[serpentdove]

...[T]here is only one thing that connects these events and that is the availability of guns.

You'll get our guns when you pry them out of our cold, dead hands (Lk 22:36). :BillyBob:

See:

Lone Wolf

 

[Desert Reign]

You don't win a fight over ideology by killing or expelling everyone with that ideology. That really worked on Christianity didn't it? Ask Rome. You can fight an idea with a better idea and by refusing to give the other idea power.

You seem to be getting the right idea.So you recognise that you need to take power away from Muslims. How do you propose to do that? The power behind Islam is the gun and the sword and the bomb. And the internet.
Awaiting your suggestions.

 

[ClimateSanity]

Interviews with his father and former wife suggest he was deeply homophobic and violent.

How many homophobic wife beaters go out and commit mass murder? How many homophobic wife beaters who have been indoctrinated with religious hate commit acts of terror?

 

[annabenedetti]

I have no idea. However, a selective list of the 25 perceived deadliest won't help you. I am guessing that for the most part, there is only one thing that connects these events and that is the availability of guns. But since the American people have already deposed on that issue, it is a non-issue.

No, it's not an non-issue, it's a large part of the issue - but by saying it's a non-issue, it's more than a little reminiscent of your earlier words: "It sounds like you are avoiding the issue. It won't go away. "

But if there are other connections or similarities between certain events, does this mean that you are going to ignore them just because guns happens also to be one of the connections? Even I, a non-American, can vaguely recall incidents over the last few years where Muslims have been involved in terrorist acts. And you only have to ever so slightly expand your statistic to the more logical and informative (given that gun availability is not an issue) to 'Mass killings...' then straightaway you are going to get the twin towers event and you are going to get a lot of other events in which Muslims were involved. Muslims have a tendency to hate America. This is not my opinion. It is only what Muslims say themselves. Not just a few, but very many.

I don't disagree with you. However, I see the tendency by some Americans to do the very same thing. Some of them tend to hate Muslims. This is not only my opinion. It is only what Americans say themselves. Not just a few, but very many.

Same answer. The argument is not about the murders that weren't committed by Muslims but about those that were. And will be. Unless you take steps to stop it.

Here's the crux of it. How does our constitutional government "take steps to stop it" when "it" hasn't been committed? How do they do it constitutionally?

No. You misunderstand. This is not my argument but that of liberal-minded people who are unwilling to criticise Islam for what it is. It is their argument that defeats itself. Obviously, you must look at each situation, but how many Lutherans claim their religion as the driving force behind their crimes? How many Hindus, how many Christians of some particular denomination or sect, how many JW's?
But how many Muslims? The answer is loads.If you get one 'emotionally unstable' person from some religion, then you say he was emotionally unstable. You don't blame the religion. But when you get as many as there have been in Islam, you can't realistically take the same view. Your idealism stops at the facts.

Historically? If you go back in history, most major religions are guilty, my own baptismal religion included. In this, Christians don't have clean hands. Any religious ideology that condones (or has condoned) killing for that religious ideology has the capability of being barbaric.

 

[annabenedetti]

You seem to be getting the right idea.So you recognise that you need to take power away from Muslims. How do you propose to do that? The power behind Islam is the gun and the sword and the bomb. And the internet.
Awaiting your suggestions.

What are your suggestions?

 

[annabenedetti]

How many homophobic wife beaters go out and commit mass murder? How many homophobic wife beaters who have been indoctrinated with religious hate commit acts of terror?

What you quoted me as saying in your post may indeed be true, but it's not a quote of my words. Where are you getting those words from?

 

[ClimateSanity]

You don't win a fight over ideology by killing or expelling everyone with that ideology.

No one is trying to win a fight over ideology. We are trying to limit the damage inflicted by that ideology. More importantly, we are trying to limit the power and perceived might of that ideology in the minds of its adherents.

 

[serpentdove]

Trump: :greedy: If Hillary Clinton, :sibbie: after this attack, still cannot say the two words 'Radical Islam' she should get out of this race for the Presidency.

:CRASH: Radical Islam :idunno: CIA created ISIS

See:

Lone Wolf

 

[ClimateSanity]

What you quoted me as saying in your post may indeed be true, but it's not a quote of my words. Where are you getting those words from?

I thought it was your post. I will check again.

 

[rocketman]

It is about guns. It's a mass shooting. Seriously, you can't see the forest for the trees. :chuckle:

False! It is not about guns and it never was, it is about a radicalized Muslims in this country carrying out mass murder driven by their religious ideology. Keep waving that false flag and maybe you can get someone not paying attention to the actual facts to pay attention.

Bombs are more difficult for people to make, which means bombings are more rare than mass shootings. And it wasn't radical Islam that blew up in Oklahoma City.

Reaching way back are we? Was radical islam even on the radar in America in 1995? Were not the planes flown into the world trade centers also considered bombs? How about the pressure pot bombs used in Boston? There have been almost 3200 people killed on American soil from radical muslims since 9-11-2001 and you still want to rant it is a gun problem? Please try to get up to speed on what is driving the problem instead of being stuck in the liberal ditch of it being a gun problem.

You don't seem to know what the "disease" is. The second largest terrorist attack in US history wasn't caused by radical Islam. It was caused by a white guy with extreme right wing ideology. By your logic we should have started banning/expelling right wingers back in the 90s.

You don't win a fight over ideology by killing or expelling everyone with that ideology. That really worked on Christianity didn't it? Ask Rome. You can fight an idea with a better idea and by refusing to give the other idea power.

I can seee full well what the disease is as well as the disease/psychosis you are walking in and yours has made you blind to the other. Rant away, your whine to disarm is as irrelevant as your argument that guns are the problem with radical islamic terrorism. :juggle:

 

[annabenedetti]

There is no month long Easter

Eastertide.

In Western Christianity
Eastertide is the period of fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost Sunday.

 

[Alate_One]

What religion was he? :dizzy: Ge 16:12, Jer 7:6, GWT :CRASH:

What religion was Timothy McVeigh? What religion was Dylan Roof? What religion was Adam Lanza?

 

[ClimateSanity]

What you quoted me as saying in your post may indeed be true, but it's not a quote of my words. Where are you getting those words from?

Check post #177

 

[ClimateSanity]

Orlando shooting exposes so many of America’s faultlines

The array of initial reactions illustrates just how confused the political response might become. Whatever else this is, it’s not about immigration. Omar Mateen, the suspected killer, was born in America. Whatever compelled him to commit such a terrible act cannot be laid at the border of a foreign nation. His hatred was home-grown.
Some will say it is about Islam. Mateen was Muslim. But mass shootings are not unique to Islam or alien to America. There were 330 last year alone.
Some will say it is about security. Mateen claimed allegiance to Islamic State. At the time of writing the Isis-affiliated news agency, Amaq, has claimed responsibility for the attack, although an official claim from Isis has been disputed. But he appears to have had no previous convictions. He may have been inspired by Isis’s brutality, but you can’t arrest people for what’s in their heads.

Some will say it is about religious integration. Interviews with his father and former wife suggest he was deeply homophobic and violent. The target of a gay club was clearly not an accident.
His father told NBC he once become enraged by two men kissing in public. His ex-wife told the Washington Post he was abusive and unstable. “He beat me,” she said. “He would just come home and start beating me up because the laundry wasn’t finished.” All this could prompt a liberal broadside against both Islam and the perils of multiculturalism.
But Muslims did not invent domestic violence or homophobia. And the determination with which some on the right have fought same-sex marriage indicates tolerance and acceptance have struggled to find a home in significant sections of Christian America. Indeed, just hours after the attack Texas’s lieutenant governor, Dan Patrick, seemed to suggest that the victims were responsible for their own deaths: “Do not be deceived,” he tweeted, citing Galatians chapter 6, verse 7. “God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.”
​

 

[annabenedetti]

False! It is not about guns and it never was, it is about a radicalized Muslims in this country carrying out mass murder driven by their religious ideology. Keep waving that false flag and maybe you can get someone not paying attention to the actual facts to pay attention.

Reaching way back are we? Was radical islam even on the radar in 1995? Were not the planes flown into the world trade centers also considered bombs? How about the pressure pot bombs used in Boston? There have been almost 3200 people killed on American soil from radical muslims since 9-11-2001 and you still want to rant it is a gun problem? Please try to get up to speed on what is driving the problem instead of being stuck in the liberal ditch of it being a gun problem.

I can seee full well what the disease is as well as the disease/psychosis you are walking in and yours has made you blind to the other. Rant away, your whine to disarm is as irrelevant ayour argument that guns are the problem with radical islamic terrorism. :juggle:

You're projecting. Alate_One isn't ranting (or whining), you are. Her posts are calm and rational and devoid of apocalyptic fear-mongering. Unlike yours.

 

[Desert Reign]

What are your suggestions?

It's not too hard to do a brainstorming on this:
Blanket ban on Muslims (except diplomats and country representatives) entering the country for 2 or 3 generations.
Blanket ban on Muslims obtaining firearms.
Amend the law/constitution to define Islam as not a religion, i.e. not benefitting from protections accorded to other religions.
Keep close tracks on on all Muslims having entered the country this generation. (This would perhaps have deterred the possibly lying father of the Florida terrorist from bringing up his son as a good Muslim to beat up his wife and hate America.)
No Muslim charities.

Etc., etc. I am sure you could think of more. Muslims need to be taught that when they come into our countries to live, they leave all aspects of their culture behind them that are incompatible with our own values. There will be no Sharia law practised in our countries, no polygamy, no honour killings or forced female circumcision for starters and no woman should be permitted to wear a full face cover.
It's not difficult to come up with suggestions when you are not inhibited by idealism.

 

[annabenedetti]

Check post #177

Not sure why you quoted my post 213, and then quoted me as if I said it rather than the article to which I'd linked. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Alate_One]

False! It is not about guns and it never was, it is about a radicalized Muslims in this country carrying out mass murder driven by their religious ideology. Keep waving that false flag and maybe you can get someone not paying attention to the actual facts to pay attention.

I've agreed with you repeatedly that radical Islam is a threat. How is this not getting through to you? It's simply not the WHOLE threat.

Reaching way back are we? Was radical islam even on the radar in 1995?

Yes! Radical Islam was on the radar then. In fact that was everyone's first suspicion when the bombing happened, that it was, what people called back then Middle Eastern Terrorists. You forget the first world trade center bombing was in 1993. The right likes to pretend terrorists didn't exist and nobody knew about them before 911. That makes it seem like everyone was blindsided by the threat and GWB didn't make any mistakes. We shouldn't have been blindsided then. Some of us have longer memories than that and make a habit of studying history. The terrorists certainly do. They're still angry about the crusades.

Were not the planes flown into the world trade centers also considered bombs? How about the pressure pot bombs used in Boston? There have been almost 3200 people killed on American soil from radical muslims since 9-11-2001 and you still want to rant it is a gun problem? Please try to get up to speed on what is driving the problem instead of being stuck in the liberal ditch of it being a gun problem.

The topic at hand is a mass shooting. As I said, radical Islam is a threat. But plenty of mass shooting have had nothing to do with radical Islam. Why can't you admit there is a gun problem as well as a terror problem? This past shooting is a combination of both. Are you unable to see two causes combined?