Marines lied: women in combat

[gcthomas]

:thumb:

GC answered my question and didn't even know it...we were talking about light infantry combat units but he decided to switch over to logistical support personnel in order to reply?

You haven't been following the discussion, have you? The OP is about women in the marines, and that is what we were discussion. And in the marines women are not allowed into infantry units, but are allowed into logistics. Ergo, no grenades. So grenade throwing ability is irrelevant for assessing a female marine.

Did you follow that second time around?

 

[The Berean]

I used chess and professional video gaming in previous examples for several reasons. Kids get started here before social pressure really matters. As for social pressure, the media has painted a false picture for a couple of generations that women do well in male-dominated fields.

In school texts, it's usually females used in math/science questions. A kid could get the idea that nearly every engineer is a woman.

Hmmm...I've never noticed this before. I'm currently tutoring a 13 year old girl from my church in Algebra. The next time we meet I'll check out her textbook to see how often women are featured in the textbook.

90% of women in management are there because of quotas, not qualifications. There are no quotas in chess, video games, and machining. No DOTA video game league, pulling in hundreds of thousands of dollars, has to worry about the feds suing them for lack of female participation.

I can't speak for chess and video games but as far as machining how many females are into mechanical stuff (working on cars, bikes, etc.)? I don't know too many females that like this stuff. The only time I met a large number of females who did like building stuff was when I was at college. I attended a polytechnic school that actively encouraged hands-on learning. There were quite a few females who worked on projects like formula cars, hybrid cards, off road vehicles, recumbent bicycles, etc.

The vast majority women in the Marines are there because of quotas, not qualifications. It's about Social Engineering, not Combat.

This is 100% true. The Marines are foolish for lowering their standards just to allow more women to become Marines.

Maybe she was pushy and otherwise not pleasant? Are you suggesting that men took an attitude because she's female? I generally find men to be very welcoming of females in male-dominated fields.

I'm not sure. She was very pushy IMO. But that didn't bother me really. I never made a point to argue with her. I think the male engineers who had a problem with her were pushy themselves.

I was assigned to a senior manufacturing engineer who was one of these old school, pocket protector wearing, I-build-engines-in-my-garage, type of engineers. He was about 60 years old. He was impossible to please. I had difficult time working with him. Another engineer pulled me aside and encouraged me not to let him get to me. He has worked under him as well and had problems with him as also. And this engineer had over 30 years experience himself. Anyway this older engineer would get into with the lady engineer all the time.

One time I helped the older engineer design a rather large tooling stand. He insisted that it be made out of welded steel tubing. I told him why not design it out of something like 80/20 extrude aluminum tubing? It would be cheaper and it could be disassembled and stored much easier than a welded steel stand thank couldn't be disassembled. Anyway, the lady engineer saw the design on my computer screen ans she was all like "what the f is that?! That is way over-engineered!" I told her I'm just the CAD designer and the older engineer wants it that way. She laughed.

Another time she stormed into his cube about some design issue and started yelling at him. And they went at each other for about five minutes.

 

[lightbringer]

The Marines are foolish for lowering their standards just to allow more women to become Marines.

The Marine Corps was the last of the four military organizations to accept women and it was due to mandate by DOD.

The standards for women was set in order to allow them entrance, we have never wanted women and to this day do not wish to have females in any of our unites.

Marines are first and foremost Combat Infantrymen.

 

[The Berean]

The Marine Corps was the last of the four military organizations to accept women and it was due to mandate by DOD.

The standards for women was set in order to allow them entrance, we have never wanted women and to this day do not wish to have females in any of our unites.

Marines are first and foremost Combat Infantrymen.

I see. Why did the DoD mandate this in your opinion?

 

[gcthomas]

The Marine Corps was the last of the four military organizations to accept women and it was due to mandate by DOD.

The standards for women was set in order to allow them entrance, we have never wanted women and to this day do not wish to have females in any of our unites.

Marines are first and foremost Combat Infantrymen.

You are conflating the Fleet Marine Forces (the infantry) with the Marine Corps, which includes amongst other branches, Marine Aviation and the Logistics Groups. From what I can find out there are 12 support marines for every combat infantryman. That is about 8%.

Your mistake is like assuming at USAF servicemen and servicewomen are first and foremost pilots. You were apparently in the USMC, so you should know better.

 

[lightbringer]

You are conflating the Fleet Marine Forces (the infantry) with the Marine Corps, which includes amongst other branches, Marine Aviation and the Logistics Groups. From what I can find out there are 12 support marines for every combat infantryman. That is about 8%.

Your mistake is like assuming at USAF servicemen and servicewomen are first and foremost pilots.

Marine recruits are trained in 3 areas, 1. Marine Recruit Depot ( a process of weeding out those that can not conform and the basic process of building the Marine attitude) 2. Infantry Training Regiment (The basics of Marine Combat) 3. Advanced Training if the individual qualifies in one of the Advanced Occupations.
During their time in the Corps they will be re-qualified annually in 1&2 (both being that of a Combat Maine) and may be tested or sent to advanced training within their specialty field.

The reasoning behind this is that the Corps Primary Role and directive is to be able to move into a theater of combat and hold without further assistance for 6 months, at which time our entire system will come to a stop due to its design or we will pull out or receive full support by the other services. We are and have always been an advanced combat strike force able to move within 24-48 hours any where in the world.

If you think that any Female Marine that finds herself in a theater of combat does not know how to throw a hand grenade or use any of the basic combat weapons, you've never met a Female Marine.

I do not make comments of the other services such as the Air Force (well maybe once, taking a shot at Nick for fun) since my career was in the Marine Corps for 22 years.

Care to answer my question? What military unit and occupational field were you in?

 

[The Berean]

Marine recruits are trained in 3 areas, 1. Marine Recruit Depot ( a process of weeding out those that can not conform and the basic process of building the Marine attitude) 2. Infantry Training Regiment (The basics of Marine Combat) 3. Advanced Training if the individual qualifies in one of the Advanced Occupations.
During their time in the Corps they will be re-qualified annually in 1&2 (both being that of a Combat Maine) and may be tested or sent to advanced training within their specialty field.

The reasoning behind this is that the Corps Primary Role and directive is to be able to move into a theater of combat and hold without further assistance for 6 months, at which time our entire system will come to a stop due to its design or we will pull out or receive full support by the other services. We are and have always been an advanced combat strike force able to move within 24-48 hours any where in the world.

If you think that any Female Marine that finds herself in a theater of combat does not know how to throw a hand grenade or use any of the basic combat weapons, you've never met a Female Marine.

I do not make comments of the other services such as the Air Force (well maybe once, taking a shot at Nick for fun) since my career was in the Marine Corps for 22 years.

Care to answer my question? What military unit and occupational field were you in?

I remember reading that all Marines, regardless of occupation in the Marines, are expected to be trained and effective riflemen. Is this true, lighbringer?

 

[lightbringer]

I remember reading that all Marines, regardless of occupation in the Marines, are expected to be trained and effective riflemen. Is this true, lighbringer?

Yes sir, the Marine Corps prides itself on Marksmanship Training, this is one of the areas that all Marines re-qualify each year.

During Basic Training it is a 2 week process, after that it takes one week each year.

We teach shooting at 200, 300 and 500 meters.

200 meters in 1. Offhand position (standing slow fire) 2. Kneeling (slow fire and rapid fire 3. Sitting (Rapid fire and slow fire)

300 meters 1. kneeling (slow fire) 2. Sitting (slow fire) 3. Sitting (rapid fire)

500 meters 1. Prone, slow fire.

For those that qualify they may end up on a Rifle Team and will train in addition at 600, 800 and 1000 meters.
This is where we shake out the lightweights and get down to the real art of shooting.

 

[gcthomas]

Care to answer my question? What military unit and occupational field were you in?

Answer my questions in post #35 first.

 

[lightbringer]

Yes I have.

When you served, did the logistics people (such units as the marine women will serve in) get issued grenades to throw, or did they just get a rifle? Were they routinely ordered to take part in assaults, or did their rare fighting revolve around self protection?

I served in Vietnam for 2.5 years and at that time I knew of no Women Marines there.

Since hand grenades are very effective weapons when defending fortified emplacements all the Marines there had hand grenades.

You're a trip GC " rare fighting revolve around self protection".:rotfl:
you obviously do not know anything about the Marine Corps other than what you've been looking up recently.

There, I've answered your question, but after continuing this conversation with you I really don't need you to answer what I asked. Rare fighting revolve around self protection :rotfl: this is not something a combat vet would say...

 

[gcthomas]

I served in Vietnam for 2.5 years and at that time I knew of no Women Marines there.

Since hand grenades are very effective weapons when defending fortified emplacements all the Marines there had hand grenades.

You're a trip GC " rare fighting revolve around self protection".:rotfl:
you obviously do not know anything about the Marine Corps other than what you've been looking up recently.

There, I've answered your question, but after continuing this conversation with you I really don't need you to answer what I asked. Rare fighting revolve around self protection :rotfl: this is not something a combat vet would say...

Almost!

You didn't mention the logistics corps. Did all the Marines' dentists and surgeons, for example, carry grenades? Would a lack of upper body strength hinder their work as Marines? Couldn't a woman do that job just as well as a man?

 

[Cricket]

I have seen women bowl a cricket ball in excess of 70 mph, and can return the ball from the boundary 80 m away.

Wow. What field do you play on? :jawdrop:

 

[lightbringer]

Almost!

You didn't mention the logistics corps. Did all the Marines' dentists and surgeons, for example, carry grenades? Would a lack of upper body strength hinder their work as Marines? Couldn't a woman do that job just as well as a man?

Marine dentists and surgeons? As I said you know nothing of the Marine Corps.

You are playing a game! Silly Britt.

 

[gcthomas]

Marine dentists and surgeons? As I said you know nothing of the Marine Corps.

You are playing a game! Silly Britt.

Are you suggesting there are no doctors or nurses in Marine uniforms?

Or, if you dismiss those attached corpsmen, what about helicopter pilots? Do they carry and use grenades? A lighter female pilot means the helicopter can carry more, so they have an advantage over male aircrew. Do you have a problem with female pilots?

Don't the marines have legal officers? Do they get issued mortar tubes and grenades to carry into court?

Come on, LB. Not all marines are, or need to be, infantry. The USMC is a large complex prganisation, with space for suitable women.

 

[lightbringer]

Silly Britt :rotfl: now you're becoming ridiculous.

:wave2:

 

[TomO]

Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary.”
~Gen. Alfred M. Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps

To expand upon that point:

U.S.M.C. School Of Infantry

 

[lightbringer]

Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary.”
~Gen. Alfred M. Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps

To expand upon that point:

U.S.M.C. School Of Infantry

:thumb:

 

[gcthomas]

Every Marine is, first and foremost, a rifleman. All other conditions are secondary.”
~Gen. Alfred M. Gray, 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps

To expand upon that point:

U.S.M.C. School Of Infantry

Yay, quote battle!

"I still need Marines who can shoot and salute. But I need Marines who can fix jet engines and man sophisticated radar sets, as well."

General Robert E. Cushman, Jr., USMC

There are regular shortages in Marine pilots, intelligence officers, aviation maintenance officers, engineers and communications officers. These jobs can be done well by women, and the lack of pull up ability will not hold them back or weaken the Corps. Is it really better to have undermanned units than to fill them with well qualified women?

LB still won't answer my questions about 'non-assault troop' roles that could be filled by women, and no-one has given a good reason to reject them yet, except they can't throw grenades quite as far. Do you have any better reasons that might persuade me?

 

[TomO]

Yay, quote battle!

"I still need Marines who can shoot and salute. But I need Marines who can fix jet engines and man sophisticated radar sets, as well."

General Robert E. Cushman, Jr., USMC

There are regular shortages in Marine pilots, intelligence officers, aviation maintenance officers, engineers and communications officers. These jobs can be done well by women, and the lack of pull up ability will not hold them back or weaken the Corps. Is it really better to have undermanned units than to fill them with well qualified women?

LB still won't answer my questions about 'non-assault troop' roles that could be filled by women, and no-one has given a good reason to reject them yet, except they can't throw grenades quite as far. Do you have any better reasons that might persuade me?

LB is right...You are clueless. :AMR:

 

[lifeisgood]

When women are really allowed to get into combat, children will not only be receiving many of their fathers back from battles maimed but now also many of their mothers, and in some cases (because it will happen), children will be receiving both of their parents' bodies so that they can bury them.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus (Rev. 22:20).