Man's Nature vs Man's condition"?

[bybee]

I'm restudying Revelation in preparation for a Bible Study. This is my least favorite book to study!
I came across this idea of the paradox in which humankind finds itself in that God, because of His infinitude plus man's sinful condition, is unknowable to mankind yet life itself depends on mankind knowing God?
Of course this is the necessity for an intercessor.
But, what I am pondering is when God created Adam he did not have a "sinful" nature inherent in his genetic code? It was through his God given freewill that Adam chose to go against one of God's prohibitions, thereby acquiring a sinful condition which irrevocably altered his nature until the coming of Christ?
I am not a theologian so would very much like to hear the thoughts on this subject by those of you more knowledgeable than I.

 

[chrysostom]

it was a test
a word that is not in the kjv

they had it all
and
the only thing they couldn't do is eat the fruit of this one tree

it was a test of their free will
something that had to be done
some of the angels proved that free will was not to be trusted

 

[bybee]

it was a test
a word that is not in the kjv

they had it all
and
the only thing they couldn't do is eat the fruit of this one tree

it was a test of their free will
something that had to be done
some of the angels proved that free will was not to be trusted

Thanks Chrys! I know Revelation is an area of Scripture in which you have invested much study. I appreciate your response!

 

[chrysostom]

Thanks Chrys! I know Revelation is an area of Scripture in which you have invested much study. I appreciate your response!

the only thing anyone has to understand about the apocalypse
is
that good wins over evil

love triumphs over hate
and
we will be judged based on our works

 

[Totton Linnet]

I see where God formed the man, then took him and set him in the garden to dress it, and gave him many things....I never once see that He gave him freewill....did He create YOU? did He akse your permission?....did He curtsy?


God did forbid man...that is not freewill

 

[Totton Linnet]

it was a test
a word that is not in the kjv

they had it all
and
the only thing they couldn't do is eat the fruit of this one tree

it was a test of their free will
something that had to be done
some of the angels proved that free will was not to be trusted

Are you testing the kids when you tell them to leave the electric box alone?

God cannot be tempted with evil neither does He tempt [test] any man. Man sinned 'cause'n he wanted to...then God reminded him that he had no freewill to sin.

 

[bybee]

I see where God formed the man, then took him and set him in the garden to dress it, and gave him many things....I never once see that He gave him freewill....did He create YOU? did He akse your permission?....did He curtsy?


God did forbid man...that is not freewill

A choice was presented. The tempter urged the choice to disobey God.

 

[ok doser]

... neither does He tempt [test] any man.

Job?

 

[bybee]

Job?

Job is a conundrum. I have wondered if God wasn't really showing Satan that there really existed a "Man of faith"?
It is wise, I think, to pay attention to the friends and their comments. I have found such doubting words in my own heart.
Anyway, Tam has done a study of Job and she does a fine job of analyzing it.

 

[Nick M]

we will be judged based on our works

Wouldn't you rather be judged now based upon the life of the Lord Jesus Christ?

But, what I am pondering is when God created Adam he did not have a "sinful" nature inherent in his genetic code?

Nature, no. He was innocent. He wasn't righteous, but he was innocent. He was free to rebel, serve, love, hate...whatever he wanted.

 

[csuguy]

I'm restudying Revelation in preparation for a Bible Study. This is my least favorite book to study!
I came across this idea of the paradox in which humankind finds itself in that God, because of His infinitude plus man's sinful condition, is unknowable to mankind yet life itself depends on mankind knowing God?

Are you getting this from a particular passage or set of scriptures? While I think there are things we don't and potentially even can't understand about God - we nevertheless can understand many things about God. Even if we are fallen, we were made in God's own image, and Christians have his Holy Spirit and are told to discern God's will. We know God's character and values from the scriptures; God is love. We know we were created for good works.

Of course this is the necessity for an intercessor.

A temporary necessity that resulted from man's sins. But Christ has broken down many of these barriers and will himself ultimately be subjected to God, that God maybe all in all (1 Cor 15).

But, what I am pondering is when God created Adam he did not have a "sinful" nature inherent in his genetic code? It was through his God given freewill that Adam chose to go against one of God's prohibitions, thereby acquiring a sinful condition which irrevocably altered his nature until the coming of Christ?
I am not a theologian so would very much like to hear the thoughts on this subject by those of you more knowledgeable than I.

There are those who would say that Adam's sin was intentional, that God even made him do it - since, according to them, no one can go against God's will. However, this would make God evil and the author of sin, and further unjust for punishing us for what he made us do.

No, there was no sinful gene. There was freewill, and there were competing desires and values. Adam's desire was not evil in of itself - whether it was for knowledge or to please his wife. These are normally good things. But in this particular context these otherwise good desires turned against him due to the command such that he knew he was forbidden from partaking of this particular tree.

It is from such cases that we get phrases like "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Just because an intention is good does not mean that the means are good.

 

[Ktoyou]

Wouldn't you rather be judged now based upon the life of the Lord Jesus Christ?



Nature, no. He was innocent. He wasn't righteous, but he was innocent. He was free to rebel, serve, love, hate...whatever he wanted.

Yes, it was the fall from innocence. All scripture on this points to a fall from innocence by man's free will.

 

[bybee]

Are you getting this from a particular passage or set of scriptures? While I think there are things we don't and potentially even can't understand about God - we nevertheless can understand many things about God. Even if we are fallen, we were made in God's own image, and Christians have his Holy Spirit and are told to discern God's will. We know God's character and values from the scriptures; God is love. We know we were created for good works.



A temporary necessity that resulted from man's sins. But Christ has broken down many of these barriers and will himself ultimately be subjected to God, that God maybe all in all (1 Cor 15).



There are those who would say that Adam's sin was intentional, that God even made him do it - since, according to them, no one can go against God's will. However, this would make God evil and the author of sin, and further unjust for punishing us for what he made us do.

No, there was no sinful gene. There was freewill, and there were competing desires and values. Adam's desire was not evil in of itself - whether it was for knowledge or to please his wife. These are normally good things. But in this particular context these otherwise good desires turned against him due to the command such that he knew he was forbidden from partaking of this particular tree.

It is from such cases that we get phrases like "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Just because an intention is good does not mean that the means are good.

I am an Open-Theist so I do believe in God granted free will.
Thank you for your response.

 

[bybee]

Yes, it was the fall from innocence. All scripture on this points to a fall from innocence by man's free will.

Yes, that is how I see it also.

 

[bybee]

Wouldn't you rather be judged now based upon the life of the Lord Jesus Christ?



Nature, no. He was innocent. He wasn't righteous, but he was innocent. He was free to rebel, serve, love, hate...whatever he wanted.

That is a key distinction!
Thanks Nick

 

[ok doser]

There are those who would say that Adam's sin was intentional, that God even made him do it - since, according to them, no one can go against God's will.

the part i get stuck at is God leaving Eve alone with satan

 

[Ktoyou]

the part i get stuck at is God leaving Eve alone with satan

Rather Adam leaving Eve alone has been debated. Some contend Eve was more apt to temptation, some contend Eve was more distant from God, and some assume it was random opportunity.

There are other thesis where in is suggested the key is within the relationship between Adam and Eve, were the human relationship naturally creates a rivalry between man and God.

There are many more questions than answers. This would be a good topic for debate.

 

[Zeke]

Job is a conundrum. I have wondered if God wasn't really showing Satan that there really existed a "Man of faith"?
It is wise, I think, to pay attention to the friends and their comments. I have found such doubting words in my own heart.
Anyway, Tam has done a study of Job and she does a fine job of analyzing it.

Just another parody of Galatians 4:24-28, can't externalize these teachings.

 

[ok doser]

Rather Adam leaving Eve alone has been debated. Some contend Eve was more apt to temptation, some contend Eve was more distant from God, and some assume it was random opportunity.

There are other thesis where in is suggested the key is within the relationship between Adam and Eve, were the human relationship naturally creates a rivalry between man and God.

There are many more questions than answers. This would be a good topic for debate.

i don't blame eve - she and adam were innocents, with no experience with deception

the question to me is: was God aware of satan's true nature?

 

[whitestone]

Job is a conundrum. I have wondered if God wasn't really showing Satan that there really existed a "Man of faith"?
It is wise, I think, to pay attention to the friends and their comments. I have found such doubting words in my own heart.
Anyway, Tam has done a study of Job and she does a fine job of analyzing it.

It's all, "the Job effect",,that is one of us look at the other and narrow it down to the reason why this is happening to each one of us. First we say it's because they believe this way,or because they don't believe that. We narrow it down to what is to be done we didn't do,then the thing we did and should have not.

The thing that is different is that we instead of being Elephaz,Zophar,Bildad,Elihu and Job we change the names and insert one of the many screen names exp.(whitestone),could be any name,on the www or in real life.

In part we are all of Jobs friends,or at least we find our selves doing the same things,lol. We see the wars and say to Job "this is because",the droughts,the heat,the cold the global warming it's all because of the very thing that whitestone did,,,it's the "Job effect" with different names.