ECT MADists don't follow Paul

[Interplanner]

This is the dispensation of the fulness of times. Gal 4, Heb 9. The passage you used is one more clear expectation by the apostles that the 2nd coming would happen right after the DofJ. Sometimes I'm puzzled that Paul does not even allow for a possible delay in the 2nd coming like Mk, Mt, Peter.

 

[Right Divider]

This is the dispensation of the fulness of times. Gal 4, Heb 9. The passage you used is one more clear expectation by the apostles that the 2nd coming would happen right after the DofJ. Sometimes I'm puzzled that Paul does not even allow for a possible delay in the 2nd coming like Mk, Mt, Peter.

Firstly, please SPECIFY a passage and explain why you think it means something. Just throwing out a reference to a CHAPTER does NOT mean a thing.

Second, when did the dispensation of the fullness of times begin?

You're probably one that thinks that believers today are "spiritual Israel".

 

[Danoh]

Isaiah 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. 8:21 And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upward. 8:22 And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

Isaiah 9:1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 9:3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. 9:8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 29:20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought. 29:22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. 29:24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

Matthew 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, he came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is upon the sea coast, in the borders of Zabulon and Nephthalim: 4:14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, 4:15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

Though all that asserts that within borders within the area known as Galilee of the Gentiles was the land of the two Israelite Tribes: Zebulon and Nephtalim - you are asserting that was Gentiles He came to liberate from the above Deuteronomical vexation; am I reading you right as to that?

If so, then you are off, way off.

 

[Interplanner]

Are Jews the only ones vexed by death? Sheesh. Every term about salvation is for all mankind. If he saves from sins, he doesn't just save Jews from their sins, got it? He gets missionaries trained so that when the Spirit comes the initial burst of the Gospel is 'overwhelming force.' And said to be so in the lyrics found in I Tim 3 about the complete event of Christ.

 

[Danoh]

Are Jews the only ones vexed by death? Sheesh. Every term about salvation is for all mankind. If he saves from sins, he doesn't just save Jews from their sins, got it? He gets missionaries trained so that when the Spirit comes the initial burst of the Gospel is 'overwhelming force.' And said to be so in the lyrics found in I Tim 3 about the complete event of Christ.

And said missionaries were to be Israelites - THEIR redemption FIRST.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[steko]

2P2P is the title of the chapter in D'ISM TODAY by Ryrie back in the day, that he said was the definitive doctrine of D'ism. Two peoples, and two programs.

If there is more than just pitting Israel vs believers, then, yes, it may as well be xPxP for infinity.

It seems very odd that a faith with an offer of salvation to all would bother with one particular ethne and provide special offers to them but not to other ethnes.

You'll have to argue with GOD on His irrevocable promises to that one nation/ethnos.

This is why Mt 21's parable said that the kingdom would not belong to another 'ethne'--a brilliant word choice, because it could no longer by racial/genetic (even though that is what you used that word for in that kind of Greek). He meant that the believer in the Gospel is indeed a type of person, nullifying deals and contingencies for other ethnes.

Actually Mt 21 says that the Kingdom 'would' be given to another nation/ethnos which brings forth the fruit GOD is looking for.

Right, the Body of Christ/Church is not by 'racial/genetic, and therefore Mt 21 is not talking about the Body of Christ. It is referring to the then present unfruitful leadership of Israel vs a future nation/ethnos of Israel which would bring forth fruit.

That nation/ethnos of Israel will in that time be ruled over by these folks:

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[Interplanner]

The Gospel was the irrevocable promise to Israel. All is fulfilled in Christ.

re the 'nation', I don't think so. The vineyard of God, as used in analogies elsewhere (Jn 15) doesn't need a geography or a nation. You've made it a separate program when Jesus was trying to tell them that only one thing was needed: to be fruitful by faith.

re the throne, there is a school of thought that this is now because Christ has sat down at the right hand of God etc. That's why the 'other' Israel of Rom 9 or Gal 6 is mentioned. It is 'other' because it is defined by faith not by DNA. Even if you were right about those from Israel being part of that other Israel, it would not explain how the Gentile part got there.

 

[Danoh]

Actually, in Judaism, neither the Christ, nor Israel, will reign over the planet.

Rather, over Jerusalem as His Kingdom of Preists to the world.

It's where the RCC ripped off their religious model of a Priesthood over the nations of the world out of Rome from.

 

[Right Divider]

Are Jews the only ones vexed by death? Sheesh. Every term about salvation is for all mankind. If he saves from sins, he doesn't just save Jews from their sins, got it? He gets missionaries trained so that when the Spirit comes the initial burst of the Gospel is 'overwhelming force.' And said to be so in the lyrics found in I Tim 3 about the complete event of Christ.

No, every "term of salvation" means what it means IN ITS CONTEXT.

Read it AS IT is WRITTEN:

Luke 1:67-79 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (1:76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (1:77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (1:79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

​

NONE of the salvation in THIS passage refers to eternal life, but to deliverance of ISRAEL from their ENEMIES.

 

[Cross Reference]

No, every "term of salvation" means what it means IN ITS CONTEXT.

Read it AS IT is WRITTEN:

Luke 1:67-79 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (1:76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (1:77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (1:79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

​

NONE of the salvation in THIS passage refers to eternal life, but to deliverance of ISRAEL from their ENEMIES.

Surely you must know this: If those in the NT who believe Jesus Christ by the faith of Abraham, Abraham is said to be their father. That means you and me, though we are gentiles: "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16 (KJV)



Side note: This puts to rest any idea that for our salvation a "gift of faith", as stated by so many Calvinists, must by first administered by God.

 

[Cross Reference]

Actually, in Judaism, neither the Christ, nor Israel, will reign over the planet.

Rather, over Jerusalem as His Kingdom of Preists to the world.

It's where the RCC ripped off their religious model of a Priesthood over the nations of the world out of Rome from.

Really??:

"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."Zechariah 14:16-17 (KJV)

 

[Right Divider]

Surely you must know this: If those in the NT who believe Jesus Christ by the faith of Abraham, Abraham is said to be their father. That means you and me, though we are gentiles: "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" Romans 4:16 (KJV)

Side note: This puts to rest any idea that for our salvation a "gift of faith", as stated by so many Calvinists, must by first administered by God.

You didn't even read the post that you quoted.

I guess that Paul should have been around to help Jesus, because Jesus did not tell Israel this while He was on earth ( the a minister of the circumcision, Rom 15:8).

This is just another of the numerous cases where Jesus revealed more information to Paul.

2Cor 12:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(12:6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me. (12:7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. ​

 

[Cross Reference]

You didn't even read the post that you quoted.

What makes you think so except you need to protect something? what did I miss?

I guess that Paul should have been around to help Jesus, because Jesus did not tell Israel this while He was on earth ( the a minister of the circumcision, Rom 15:8).

I wonder why? Do you ever wonder why? Try it again, for the first time. You might be surprised what else there is to discover about His stay on Earth.

 

[Interplanner]

No, every "term of salvation" means what it means IN ITS CONTEXT.

Read it AS IT is WRITTEN:

Luke 1:67-79 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:67) And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, (1:68) Blessed [be] the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, (1:69) And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; (1:70) As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: (1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; (1:72) To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; (1:73) The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, (1:74) That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, (1:75) In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. (1:76) And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; (1:77) To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, (1:78) Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, (1:79) To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

​

NONE of the salvation in THIS passage refers to eternal life, but to deliverance of ISRAEL from their ENEMIES.

There is no dichotomy in speaking to Israel in the 1st century. that's why v77 DOES speak of the remission of sins (your highlighter ran out of ink!). This is perhaps the hardest concept about NT theology to grasp but here it goes: in the specifics of Israel under Rome and of the zealots agitating Rome, many of the things Jesus said cover both realms--they were about being justified from sins, and about escaping the awful events of the DofJ.

If advanced students of the Bible were not lead away from knowledge of the DofJ, there would not be the partitioning, the spiritual vs physical, the 2P2P that is everywhere today.

 

[Right Divider]

There is no dichotomy in speaking to Israel in the 1st century. that's why v77 DOES speak of the remission of sins (your highlighter ran out of ink!).

I UNDERLINED it. Does THAT seem like I'm trying to HIDE it?

According to JtB, water baptism was ALSO for the remission of sins. Does the water take away the sins?

Acts 3:19-21 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:19) ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (3:20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (3:21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. ​

When will Israels sins be blotted out? When is the "times of refreshing"?

This is perhaps the hardest concept about NT theology to grasp but here it goes: in the specifics of Israel under Rome and of the zealots agitating Rome, many of the things Jesus said cover both realms--they were about being justified from sins, and about escaping the awful events of the DofJ.

The DoJ is GOD's judgment against Israel and the world. It has NOTHING to do with being delivered from their ENEMIES. Once again I would ask you to read the scripture as it is written.

Luke 1:71 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:71) That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; ​

If advanced students of the Bible were not lead away from knowledge of the DofJ, there would not be the partitioning, the spiritual vs physical, the 2P2P that is everywhere today.

If you would read the scripture as it is written, you would be an "advanced student" of the Bible.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

You didn't even read the post that you quoted.

I guess that Paul should have been around to help Jesus, because Jesus did not tell Israel this while He was on earth ( the a minister of the circumcision, Rom 15:8).

This is just another of the numerous cases where Jesus revealed more information to Paul.

2Cor 12:6-7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(12:6) For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but [now] I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or [that] he heareth of me. (12:7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. ​

If you knew Jesus you would know the enemy of Israel is none other than Satan.

I reckon you think Satan didn't become the enemy until Paul was converted?

Better get to learnin' of Jesus, you disciple of the evil one.:kookoo:

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If you knew Jesus you would know the enemy of Israel is none other than Satan.

I reckon you think Satan didn't become the enemy until Paul was converted?

Better get to learnin' of Jesus, you disciple of the evil one.:kookoo:

And, you best get some schooling Festus! You sound like an illiterate I used to know.

 

[Cross Reference]

God made it clear through Paul that He had/has TWO plans.

Eph 1:1-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (1:2) Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:3) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: (1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (1:5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (1:6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (1:7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (1:8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; (1:9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (1:10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: (1:11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (1:12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

​

This gathering together is yet future (in another dispensation).

Phoo-ee, I see NO mention of a dispensation of grace as being a future event as it will be in the suming up of everything Jesus Christ.. Try again.

 

[Cross Reference]

You dictionary theologians are a HOOT!

What dictionary? What commentaries? I knew you couldn't recognize truth when you read it but, scripture??

You think that "found grace in thy site" is the SAME THING as the dispensation of the grace of God GIVEN to Paul?

Paul was given a period of time to preach Jesus christ, PERIOD, . . . pun intended.

Now I remember why you're on the Very Confused list!

RD = gt.

 

[Right Divider]

Phoo-ee, I see NO mention of a dispensation of grace as being a future event as it will be in the suming up of everything Jesus Christ.. Try again.

We are IN the time of the dispensing of God's grace. I guess that you didn't get the memo.