ECT Madists are closet Calvinists

Status
Not open for further replies.
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Thank God For another Day ! ! ! has everyone been getting along ? too cold outside, i think i'll stay on TOL all night ! ! !
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
andyc said:
Let's have a look at how the madists embrace TULIP while in denial.
Once people accept any of the first four points of Calvin (as people call it), the rest follow as a necessity. When the MADists acknowledge that they are not saved through their own faith, they've already embraced 'unconditional election', and therefore the rest must follow as a consequence.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God

If people are saved by, and live by the faith of Christ, the ability to believe was gifted. What's the basis for God doing the choosing?

Total Depravity
It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered. (wikipedia)

The madists acknowledge Calvin's view of original sin. They accept that they are born in sin, and that they are incapable of accepting Christ unless they are first enabled to. They'll argue about the details, but they subscribe to total depravity without a doubt.

Unconditional Election
(God) predestinated some people for salvation, the elect, and the others he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the old and new Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons. (wikipedia)

The MADists would fight this one to death, but they embrace it really. In a sense, you only have to look at some of the MADists posts to realize it. Many of them nastily condemn people to hell for simply disagreeing with them. Therefore if God was a MADists, only hyper dispensationalists would be the elect. If I'm condemned to hell for rejecting MAD, and unable to accept it because of my total depravity, why isn't God giving me the faith to receive it?
From a theological perspective, for some MADists the view is only very subtly different to Calvin, but for other MADists its identical. Some (OVers) would say that God didn't choose his elect from the foundation of the world, but he has chosen his elect regardless.
If God gifts faith to people, what was the reasoning / basis behind God choosing them individually? There really is no basis other than God's sovereignty (predestination). And therefore the MADists who don't subscribe to the OV, have to realize that God foresaw that he was never going to open their eyes, and so rejected them from eternity, as Calvin teaches.

Limited Atonement
The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is more than sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world,[1] it was the entirely free plan and very gracious will and intention of God the Father that the enlivening and saving effectiveness of Christ's death would work itself out in the elect only, thereby leading them without fail to salvation. (wikipedia)

Once again, if faith is gifted, only those who God chooses are included. The MADists would strongly deny that that Jesus didn't die for the sins of the world, but they don't really believe it. If man is incapable of accepting Christ, then without the gift of faith the benefits of the atonement are completely useless to those who are incapable of believing for it. The MADists are probably spitting blood over this, but that is the consequence of them not thinking their doctrines through properly.

Irresistible Grace
Irresistible Grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ. (wikipedia)

Madists would say that God doesn't force himself on anyone, but if faith is gifted, when is it the right time for God to enlighten someone?
Madists believe that once a person receives the gift of Christ's faith, they are eternally held by Christ's faith. And so, once again, what is the basis for God choosing to justify a person through the faith of Christ? What makes the person receivable?
They might say, to mentally perceive that the gospel is true, but how can God acknowledge mental perception from a mind that is depraved?
God enlightens the person giving them an ability to believe? But from their perspective, at this point they would now already be saved, and so this would make grace irresistible because faith was irresistible.


Perseverance
For the MADists, OSAS is all about personal assurance. This is exactly the same for Calvinists. The believer will persevere, not must persevere.
However, if a Calvinist who claimed to be a believer renounced their faith, the other Calvinists would not accept that that person's faith was genuine. The MADists would say the same thing about their own as well.


The thinking MADist will now have to reevaluate what it means to be saved by Christ's faith, or accept that they are closet Calvinists.
Click to expand...

well andy, i think you just tried and failed, imo. the first sentence deserves no further respect. then the last sentence rebukes . . whatever it is you tried to peddle and piddle. look those 2 words up - you seem to be trying to consolidate the mistakes of others and lump folks together - :patrol:
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
andyc said:
As Paul explained, not all who are of Israel (elect according to the flesh) are Israel (believers). It wasn't the hearers of the law who were justified, but the doers. They may have been physically uncircumcised, but their hearts were uncircumcised.
So although they may have been God's elect nation physically, individually and spiritually the requirement is faith.
Click to expand...

Did Paul say that ? Maybe we should let Him say it - :patrol:
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
patrick jane said:
well andy, i think you just tried and failed, imo. the first sentence deserves no further respect. then the last sentence rebukes . . whatever it is you tried to peddle and piddle. look those 2 words up - you seem to be trying to consolidate the mistakes of others and lump folks together - :patrol:
Click to expand...

Andy tries his best, even though, his best is, everybody elses "WORST!"
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Andy, your OP is, total fiction! Madism is a 1000 miles away from Calvinism!
In fact, it's not even in the same Universe!

1) Calvins believe the "elect" were chosen before the foundation of the world!
The Madists disagree!

2)The Calvins don't believe in man's free-will choice!
The Madists do!

3) The Calvins believe man is too sinfully disgusting to
even want to place their faith in Christ!
The Madists believe that man, must place his faith in
Christ to be saved!

4) Some Calvins believe God creates all sin!
The Madists think that's insane!

5) The Calvins believe that, man must first be,
regenerated before they can place their faith
in Christ!
The Madists believe man must place his faith
before regeneration can take place!

How dare you compare false doctrine (Calvinism)
with true doctrine? (Paul's Gospel)
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
We live in the, "Dispensation of Grace" according to the Apostle Paul!
God's Grace offered to all of mankind! In order to receive His Grace, we
must place our total faith in Christ as our Savior! Some would say; It's
Christ's faith that saves us! We have a small bit of faith to place our
faith in Christ however, we really need, "Christ's faith" that only He can
offer! So, we hear the Grace Message, we respond with our "measly"
amount of human faith, and after that, the "Holy Spirit" seals us, indwells
us, and baptizes us (not by water) into the "Body of Christ!" It starts
with our small amount of faith, but then, the salvation process is a work
of the Holy Spirit, after that! We receive "Christ's Righteousness, and no
doubt, we also receive Christ's faith at the same time! His faith is the
"Ultimate" faith! Ours is a "childlike faith!"
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Ephesians 2:8 states; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

It is God's Grace that is the gift, not faith! God doesn't give certain people
the faith to believe! Some, misinterpret that verse to mean that, "God gives
faith as the gift! That's not a correct interpretation! It's His "Grace" that is
the gift! And, it can only be received through, our faith!
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
andyc said:
In reality it's obvious they are opposite, and I thought this thread would have been wrapped up by now. But I'm surprised that no one is looking at the main point raised. I finished the OP by stating....

The thinking MADist will now have to reevaluate what it means to be saved by Christ's faith, or accept that they are closet Calvinists.

Everyone (except Grosnick & Tet) has ignored this. If faith is gifted, then grace has to be irresistible. This is what people need to get their head round. People need to realize that claiming certain beliefs and doctrines have implications on the entire system of their theology.
If I say that God chose me by giving me his faith, and I can never forfeit it, that is unconditional election. If God refuses to enlighten those who are unable to believe, that's limited atonement.

What madists have to try to explain is the difference between human faith and God's faith. When they do this, the thread is wrapped up.
I know that MAD is light years away from Calvinism in reality, but this challenge is to show that if they claim one of the first four points of Calvinism, they've got to accept them all, even reluctantly.
Click to expand...

i can't hear anything because nearly every statement begins or ends with what "we" or "they' HAVE to do, and TELL You. what someone must PROVE to YOU. i suggest working these things out in YOUR heart, mind and soul. a pastor, family, loved ones and friends - Blessings friend -:patrol: :patrol:
 
andyc

andyc

New member
You're beginning to think it. Thats better.
I agree with your view that grace is the gift. Lets see what the other MADs say.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
patrick jane said:
i can't hear anything because nearly every statement begins or ends with what "we" or "they' HAVE to do, and TELL You. what someone must PROVE to YOU. i suggest working these things out in YOUR heart, mind and soul. a pastor, family, loved ones and friends - Blessings friend -:patrol: :patrol:
Click to expand...

Good advice! We all have areas of Scripture that we can't
quite wrap our minds around! That's why we must, pray in
earnest to God our Father in Heaven, to help us understand
what we don't know! We must search the Scriptures and pray
beforehand!
 
patrick jane

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
andyc said:
You're beginning to think it. Thats better.
I agree with your view that grace is the gift. Lets see what the other MADs say.
Click to expand...

wow. you overestimate yourself, that's a sign - you can't stop obsessing and responding to who knows what - :patrol:
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
andyc said:
You're beginning to think it. Thats better.
I agree with your view that grace is the gift. Lets see what the other MADs say.
Click to expand...

Basically same as Gros: grace and salvation are the gift.

If faith is a gift, then both the Father and the Son are unjust judges and lying hypocrites for condemning those who never place their faith in Christ. If they never believe Him, that is 100% proof (following Calvinistic reasoning) that they were never elected to receive the alleged gift of faith...else they'd invariably exercise it sooner or later because they're predestined to (irresistible grace).

So His damning them for not doing what only He could enable - but obviously didn't - makes Him a liar and not the God of Scripture.

Any fence sitters beginning to see what a blasphemous logical sinkhole Calvinism is?
 
Last edited:
andyc

andyc

New member
So.....if you are not saved by Christ's faith, are you kept by his faith?
Do you live by his faith or your faith?
 
musterion

musterion

Well-known member
andyc said:
So.....if you are not saved by Christ's faith, are you kept by his faith?
Do you live by his faith or your faith?
Click to expand...

No shifting the goal post. You asked about getting saved, not what happens after a person is saved.

Does the answer Gros and I provided satisfy you?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top